Low morale in the DF (moved from RM)

[The Thing]

As a serving soldier I can say that there are so many problems with the defence forces where do I start. The only real attractive thing about the job is the pay. Most people who I have talked to would leave and seek other employment if they had the same job security in civvie land.
Moral in most units is very low in the Eastern brigade. Take the 2nd batt for instance, and the pratice of having check parades at 16:15 on weekdays or later on fridays. What sort of way is that to treat a soldier who is meant to be comitted to his/her job...?
Bullying happens on a regular occurance, the processes put into place to stop it rarely work as young soldiers are too afraid to approach NCO's and officers incase it doesn't resolve the issue and makes it worse for them.
Career courses are not ran with much regularity which is very off putting if you spend most of your year doing cash escorts or barrack duties.
Our equipment isn't that great, we have just about caught up with our European neighbours with personal issue gear, and we are nowhere near on par with heavy equipment, never mind the other two services of the defence forces.
The Mowags are the most potent equipment available to the Infantry, almsot every driver and gunner will tell you that they are a terrible buy as the Army refuse to maintain them as they should. If you have vehicles go off the road overseas because fitters don't have seals that cost a few Euros a piece what does that say about our army...?
The Nissan patrol GS is totally unsafe and yet it is in service.
There are many many many other issues that are affecting the Irish defence forces, and yes some of the older lads can moan all they want and say about how tough they had it in their day, well luckily for us, we are in our day and not theirs.
The Army is taking one step forward and two steps back all the time, it isn't hard to see why so many lads are leaving and why others wouldn't consider joining at all.

[Connaught Stranger]

As a serving soldier I can say that there are so many problems with the defence forces where do I start. The only real attractive thing about the job is the pay. Most people who I have talked to would leave and seek other employment if they had the same job security in civvie land.
Moral in most units is very low in the Eastern brigade. Take the 2nd batt for instance, and the pratice of having check parades at 16:15 on weekdays or later on fridays. What sort of way is that to treat a soldier who is meant to be comitted to his/her job...?
Bullying happens on a regular occurance, the processes put into place to stop it rarely work as young soldiers are too afraid to approach NCO's and officers incase it doesn't resolve the issue and makes it worse for them.
Career courses are not ran with much regularity which is very off putting if you spend most of your year doing cash escorts or barrack duties.
Our equipment isn't that great, we have just about caught up with our European neighbours with personal issue gear, and we are nowhere near on par with heavy equipment, never mind the other two services of the defence forces.
The Mowags are the most potent equipment available to the Infantry, almsot every driver and gunner will tell you that they are a terrible buy as the Army refuse to maintain them as they should. If you have vehicles go off the road overseas because fitters don't have seals that cost a few Euros a piece what does that say about our army...?
The Nissan patrol GS is totally unsafe and yet it is in service.
There are many many many other issues that are affecting the Irish defence forces, and yes some of the older lads can moan all they want and say about how tough they had it in their day, well luckily for us, we are in our day and not theirs.
The Army is taking one step forward and two steps back all the time, it isn't hard to see why so many lads are leaving and why others wouldn't consider joining at all.

Looks like we have a genuine military expert here,

(Err.... this thread is about the ROYAL MARINES in case you didn't notice,

not the Defence Forces)

So care to tell us how many years service you have to come up with all your opinions.?

Pay: We had the same opinion in 1976, when life in civy street improved and jobs and pay got better hundreds of soldiers left and went out to work in civy street. Many came crawling back when the bubble burst, very few got back in.

Morale: what's that , life is what you make it, after all they are in a Defence Force and not likely to be deployed overseas in combat unless they volunteer. Check Parades were implemented in Finner Camp on Saturday and Sunday mornings in the 1970s & 1980s, just to get the Sligo lads in, because if they were ever detailed for a weekend duty they didn't bother, they just turned up with a sick note on a Monday morning.

Bullying? sure its rampant, by the way define bullying, is it when you get a "rollicking" for Fcuking up or are you are implying physical violence is offered? Be sure to add details and again be prepared to back it up, there is also PDFORRA available now, something I never had in my day, if you are going to sling accusations around be sure to be able to back it up with facts and figures.

Oh so doing cash patrols or C.I.T. as they were known outside the Donegal area and Barrack guard is not good enough for the likes of you, care to tell us what you would like to be doing instead??

If you think your kit is bad now, then you should have seen wat we had in the 1970's, 1980's.

It might have escaped your attention that the European counterparts are actively involved with NATO commitments, so what do you need the same toys for, planning on starting a war??

Mowags, so Gunners are expert mechanics now, how many are U/S and gone off road overseas again list your references. We only had Panhard's to play with in the Lebanon, but you have probably only seen them from a distance or in a museum.

Again supply facts and figures with regards all the defective Nissans out there.
And feel fre e to list your many, many, other complaints I am sure somebody here will take great pleasure in replying to them.

You are some whinger, if you cant stick the heat get out of the kitchen.

or as we used to say in Finner: "Got a Crib?? Save it till Christmas!"

[Slaphead]

If your so unhappy with the job pack up and leave!

[hedgehog]

The thing,

your posting on stuff you havent a clue about,

are you even in 2 Bn-

if such a small part of your post is factually incorrect- then how can

we really take the rest of your post serious.


By the way- what time is finishing time in what ever Unit of the Defence Forces you are in.

[The Thing]

Looks like we have a genuine military expert here,

(Err.... this thread is about the ROYAL MARINES in case you didn't notice,

not the Defence Forces)

So care to tell us how many years service you have to come up with all your opinions.?

Pay: We had the same opinion in 1976, when life in civy street improved and jobs and pay got better hundreds of soldiers left and went out to work in civy street. Many came crawling back when the bubble burst, very few got back in.

Morale: what's that , life is what you make it, after all they are in a Defence Force and not likely to be deployed overseas in combat unless they volunteer. Check Parades were implemented in Finner Camp on Saturday and Sunday mornings in the 1970s & 1980s, just to get the Sligo lads in, because if they were ever detailed for a weekend duty they didn't bother, they just turned up with a sick note on a Monday morning.

Bullying? sure its rampant, by the way define bullying, is it when you get a "rollicking" for Fcuking up or are you are implying physical violence is offered? Be sure to add details and again be prepared to back it up, there is also PDFORRA available now, something I never had in my day, if you are going to sling accusations around be sure to be able to back it up with facts and figures.

Oh so doing cash patrols or C.I.T. as they were known outside the Donegal area and Barrack guard is not good enough for the likes of you, care to tell us what you would like to be doing instead??

If you think your kit is bad now, then you should have seen wat we had in the 1970's, 1980's.

It might have escaped your attention that the European counterparts are actively involved with NATO commitments, so what do you need the same toys for, planning on starting a war??

Mowags, so Gunners are expert mechanics now, how many are U/S and gone off road overseas again list your references. We only had Panhard's to play with in the Lebanon, but you have probably only seen them from a distance or in a museum.

Again supply facts and figures with regards all the defective Nissans out there.
And feel fre e to list your many, many, other complaints I am sure somebody here will take great pleasure in replying to them.

You are some whinger, if you cant stick the heat get out of the kitchen.

or as we used to say in Finner: "Got a Crib?? Save it till Christmas!"

I've had almost 10 years experience as a full time soldier and a couple as a reservist so that's more than enough to formulate my opinion of the job and the defence forces.

This isn't the duldrons of the 70's it's the boom times of the wee years albeit secure jobs are hard to come by so many soldiers are trapped and tied to their jobs due to finanical commitments and constraints.

Again you are wrong, many soldiers, especially drivers, cooks, and medics etc have been detailed to serve overseas shortly after having been deployed months ealier, this might not seem like a problem to some here, but when it clashes with family commitments and being alble to have a social life it becomes a hugh problem. Strains are put on relationships and it affects work pratices, so much so that morale suffers as a result.

I will not throw accusations at individuals on a public forum involving cases of bullying, I can only admitt that as a serving member of the defence forces I have wittnessed and being on the recieveing end of bullying. I have known members who were forced to leave because of bullying. To say that bullying doesn't happen or that there is an easy solution to erradicate it in the workplace is a very foolish statement to make.

Yes doing barrack guard and cash in transit isn't good enough for the likes of me and thousands of other soldiers, when one is doing it year in year out with very little scope for doing other soldiering tasks. I joined the defence forces to be a soldier and at the least to train on a regular enough basis as to have JOB satasification and a sense of purpose.

So let me get this straight for a moment.......we have an army but don't need to equip and train that army to an international standard, in your opinion we need the same training and equipment that were provided during the glorious 1970's. As I have stated our individual equipment is only now on par with our European neighbours be they NATO alliance members or not. Our logistical and armour equipment is a joke by international standards.

From direct experience as a Mowag driver and Gunner (AKA a crewman) I can tell you that on every mission I have served on at least 25% and sometimes upwards of 50% of the Mowags were off the road due to basic problems that could have been servicable if the correct parts had been supplied. In Liberia out of 22 Mowags in the field 10 were off the road at one stage. In lebanon out of the 12 on UN service, 7 were off the road during my trip. To say that a crewman is not an expert on his or her vehicle is a foolish comment to make. I am well aware of the Panhard M-3 having been a gunner on the said vehicle and of the AML 20's and 90's having worked Very closely with the Cavalary on previous United Nations missions.

I cannot supply a statistical fact count on the GS model Nissan patrol only to say that they are an unsafe vehicle to drive in my respects, they have no ABS braking system, no radio for driver comfort (you know some of us have to do those long cashes that you seem to love and long escorts and details) . Poor lighting alightment for the driver. No first aid kits or proper break down kits.

Yes I am a winger, and thankfully it was wingers like me, who had the foresight and deterimination to start PDFORRA so that the powers that be in government could see that soldiers were unhappy with pay and conditions and wished for a change to working pratice.

Finally the question was asked why people would join the Royal Marine Commando's from these shores and from the ranks of the defence forces, I was trying to air and give perspective to many who are not members of the Permanent defence forces why this might be the case.

[hedgehog]

The Thing wrote today - 25 Feb 07

I've had almost 10 years experience as a full time soldier and a couple as a reservist so that's more than enough to formulate my opinion of the job and the defence forces.

But in 2003- he wrote

30th December 2003, 13:35 #1
The Thing
Private


Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 240 Does anyone know how long the waiting list is for the Defence Forces!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I phoned the manpower office in Dublin yesterday and they said there was a long waiting list albeit this was for general service in the army. Do cadets have the same problem or what about the Naval Service and Air Corps? Anyone know or have the same problem!
By the way happy New Year.:xlol:

and

22nd March 2003, 14:50 #1
The Thing
Private


Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 240 Warminster "a Shit Cool Place"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last week I was over in Warminster UK on a PIOFV potential infantry officer fam visit.

and in 2004

11th April 2004, 12:10 #1
The Thing
Private


Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 240 Passing fitness tests!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I applied for the army in Jan of this year had my interview in Feb my medical in March and my fitness test two and a half weeks ago (which I passed). However I have not heard anything since then and I was wondering was anyone else in the same boat!
Thanks for your help on the issue!

just when did you clock up your 10 years service and the couple as a reservist

or am I missing stuff

[The Thing]

The thing,

your posting on stuff you havent a clue about,

are you even in 2 Bn-

if such a small part of your post is factually incorrect- then how can

we really take the rest of your post serious.


By the way- what time is finishing time in what ever Unit of the Defence Forces you are in.

Can you honestly say with 100% conviction that check parades don't happen in Units such as the 2 Bn at the times I mentioned above and with a regular occurance?
Perhaps you might think that treating a trained soldier like a recruit is the key to a happy soldier and unit espirt de corps....?
No one doesn't have to be a member of the 2 Bn to know that this has happened.
Defence Force regulations state that the working day of a unit is 08:30 until 16:30 Monday to Friday and 08:30 until 12:30 saturday.
If you can point out the errors of my previous posts I would be very greatful :D

[The Thing]

The Thing wrote today - 25 Feb 07




But in 2003- he wrote




and



and in 2004




just when did you clock up your 10 years service and the couple as a reservist

or am I missing stuff

Yes you are my friend because I left the defence forces in 2002 and rejoined in 2004 as I had completed a college course.

[hedgehog]

If you can point out the errors of my previous posts I would be very greatful :D

1- whats it to you- your not even a member of the Unit.

2- The Muster Parade whether it occured before 1630 or not is not the issue

3- If you know so much about the Unit- then tell me why they were called

4- AS my previous post points out- your stories dont actually add up

5- I refer back to my earlier post- whats it got to do with you

[ZULU]

Yes you are my friend because I left the defence forces in 2002 and rejoined in 2004 as I had completed a college course.

Left in 2002 and rejoined in 2004 ? Is your ten years service in the PDF including 2004 to present?

If so you joined in 1996 right?

[BANDIT]

There is no point in attacking the messenger. Instead look at what he is saying.
First of all doing cash escorts , routine ATCP ( checkpoints and the like) work involves a lot of time, may not necessarily be considered as a militray task and bites into military training time. Why the army are still doing cash escorts is another question. And before any asks me have u ever done one .. Yes I have and was an NCO ic of one of the first in 1978 and served in an infantry unit taht probably had the highest duty burden in the DF at that time.But Morale was generally good , we had a training and fitness prog and when we did our job we were off . yet if there was a confinement/stand to as a unit everybody was ready and on the ball .. little in the way of Bull.
As regards equipment MOWAGS. IF half of what he says is true then there is a big problem ..In my opinion they are expensive over speced taxis that cannot even stop an RPG.
Yes personal gear has definitely improved from Blanco web belts but are we concentrating on nice looking Guicci gear and not paying sufficient attention to the individual soldier, as regrads fitness, career traiing and this thing called morale. Speaking to a recently retired officer he mentioned that the army had changed since my time, that it was very much a 9 to 5 job, the introduction of women soldiers was a disaster in most units, and that there was a lack of morale

[Goldie fish]

I also heard that the current fleet of Mowags have had their warranty invalidated due to the scavanging of parts from other mowags when they were overseas in liberia.

I also know that the Nissan Patrol GR is a pile of crap compared to other "domestic" 4x4 cars. I own a Pajero myself and I dread drives in army nissans. Nissan has always had a reputation for "basic". Its fine for Farmer john Pulling the horsebox out of the farmyard going to the mart, but it has poor visibility and is too flimsy for regular offroad use. The Old Nissans were far superior.

[The Thing]

[QUOTE=Goldie fish;197522]I also heard that the current fleet of Mowags have had their warranty invalidated due to the scavanging of parts from other mowags when they were overseas in liberia.

You are quite right in saying that certain mowags were used like spare part factories in Liberia, it is almost common pratice now on overseas missions to use a broken down vehicle like this, because the logistical back up just isn't there. I bet our Scandanivian partners were so greatful that we had different vehicles and parts were not interchangable.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi there
With regard to scavenging from u/s vehicles, that has been going on since the day the DF was started.It also applies to ships, aircraft and every other piece of kit. I have seen aircraft grounded for over a year as parts were stripped to keep the rest of the fleet flying.It's common practise, not necessarily right but has to be done until the pares get issued..As for warranties,if the manufacturer won't play ball, then renegotiate the contract or give it to someone else.Soldiers in foreign countries need a dependable maintence back-up and if somebody in an office in Switzerland is feeling annoyed, drag his ass out to the field and show him how tough it is to keep "his" kit moving. Thing, you can't expect absolute compatibility with other armies' equipment. Some cross-compatibility will occur but not everything.
regards
GttC

[Connaught Stranger]

I've had almost 10 years experience as a full time soldier and a couple as a reservist so that's more than enough to formulate my opinion of the job and the defence forces.

This isn't the duldrons of the 70's it's the boom times of the wee years albeit secure jobs are hard to come by so many soldiers are trapped and tied to their jobs due to finanical commitments and constraints.

". . . almost had 10 years service as a full time soldier 9 years 1 day ? 9 years 1 month?
Are you adding your time as a member of the Reserve in amongst the 10 years ? or is that extra?

So your mentality is if there was enough work in civy street you would be off! Met your type before in my service, only in it for the money or the cushy numbers.

Again you are wrong, many soldiers, especially drivers, cooks, and medics etc have been detailed to serve overseas shortly after having been deployed months ealier, this might not seem like a problem to some here, but when it clashes with family commitments and being alble to have a social life it becomes a hugh problem. Strains are put on relationships and it affects work pratices, so much so that morale suffers as a result.

All are volunteers in the Defence Forces, you serve overseas, you get your leave then its back to work, if you have to go again then think of the extra money to help pay your "finanical commitments and constraints." (so your relationships are under strain, imagine how she would feel if you were deployed to an actual war, like some of the international armies you are whining on about).

I will not throw accusations at individuals on a public forum involving cases of bullying, I can only admitt that as a serving member of the defence forces I have wittnessed and being on the recieveing end of bullying. I have known members who were forced to leave because of bullying. To say that bullying doesn't happen or that there is an easy solution to erradicate it in the workplace is a very foolish statement to make.

I never denied it it did not occur, you were asked by me, to list what type of bullying mental or physical and to give instances, you can leave out names, use Private X and Corporal Z.

Yes doing barrack guard and cash in transit isn't good enough for the likes of me and thousands of other soldiers, when one is doing it year in year out with very little scope for doing other soldiering tasks. I joined the defence forces to be a soldier and at the least to train on a regular enough basis as to have JOB satasification and a sense of purpose.

Tough titty you joined the military and guard duties, cash in transit, border patrols, Officers orderly, bar work or even waiter in the Mess, or "dixie bashing" is all part and parcel of the job. If you dont like it, well you know where the gate is don't let it hit you in the arse on the way out.

So let me get this straight for a moment.......we have an army but don't need to equip and train that army to an international standard, in your opinion we need the same training and equipment that were provided during the glorious 1970's. As I have stated our individual equipment is only now on par with our European neighbours be they NATO alliance members or not. Our logistical and armour equipment is a joke by international standards.

NO! you don't have an Army per se you have an Irish Defence Forces, which you are foolishly trying to compare to N.A.T.O. players out there in Europe. Ireland's military is not comparable to other European countries due to its small size, So your argument for an international standard goes out the window (Read up on the kit deficiencies the British are experiencing in Afghanistan and Iraq, same as the Americans, if they cant get all they want, do you realy think the Minister of Finance will approve an open Budget for the Irish Defence Forces I am sure that will go down well with the Irish Taxpayer who pay your wages. As I read this you seem to be a driver, so what's the point in giving you all new kit to play with? You will never get near it because your trade description is Driver. . . .


(A case of Penis Envy Syndrome with regards International Military Forces.)??

From direct experience as a Mowag driver and Gunner (AKA a crewman) I can tell you that on every mission I have served on at least 25% and sometimes upwards of 50% of the Mowags were off the road due to basic problems that could have been servicable if the correct parts had been supplied. In Liberia out of 22 Mowags in the field 10 were off the road at one stage.

In lebanon out of the 12 on UN service, 7 were off the road during my trip. To say that a crewman is not an expert on his or her vehicle is a foolish comment to make. I am well aware of the Panhard M-3 having been a gunner on the said vehicle and of the AML 20's and 90's having worked Very closely with the Cavalary on previous United Nations missions.

I find your percentages to be way high, care to prove any of that? (How is your problem because without proof you are making unfounded accusations,) you can list the UN Missions you were on as well by year if you want.

Please explain having worked very closely with the Cavalry, were you even part of the Armoured section or not, I stood closely beside Panard 90's APC in the Lebanon does that mean I am working very closely with the Cavalry??.

(A case of I want to be in the Cavalry Envy Syndrome??)

[QUOTE=The Thing;197500]I cannot supply a statistical fact count on the GS model Nissan patrol only to say that they are an unsafe vehicle to drive in my respects, they have no ABS braking system, no radio for driver comfort (you know some of us have to do those long cashes that you seem to love and long escorts and details) . Poor lighting alightment for the driver. No first aid kits or proper break down kits.

Well, they might not be suited for cross country, but lets be truth full and admit in Ireland's Green Isle you wont be doing much of that, you should have spent time in the back of a canvas top landrover in the middle of winter, or with a Toyota Land Cruiser. You had a jack, wheel brace, etc... what more Gucci kit do you need??

A civvie Radio for Driver comfort!!!!! ROFLAO

(Sonny, you are suffering from "White Van Man" Syndrome.)

Yes I am a winger, and thankfully it was wingers like me, who had the foresight and deterimination to start PDFORRA so that the powers that be in government could see that soldiers were unhappy with pay and conditions and wished for a change to working pratice.

So you claim to be a founding member of P.D.F.O.R.R.A.? have you ever held a post with them??

Finally the question was asked why people would join the Royal Marine Commando's from these shores and from the ranks of the defence forces, I was trying to air and give perspective to many who are not members of the Permanent defence forces why this might be the case.

So you contend all the guys who join the R.M. from Ireland are ex-members of the Irish Defence Forces sour because they did not get enough "Bling-Bling" to play with!!!

Would love to see the look on the Recruiting N.C.O.'s face when he reads that answer to: "Why do you want to join H.R.H. Royal Marine Commandos:"

And I feel sorry for the poor buggers who get stuck on duty with you and have to listen to your complaining, and comments on what should be done and how it should be done.

You try to word your posts as to show its all about the "thousands of other soldiers" who feel the same way as you do, well I dont here them shouting, I cant recal any posting comments here, I cant recall from when talking to friends back home in
P.D.F.O.R.R.A. that there was such a critical equipment problem, to my mind its all about YOU!

Barrack Room Liar Syndrome?

Through the history of any military there are those who will always be playing at catch up, its a part of the job, you are in a military that is confined to a certain financial budget, there is very little justification in spending excessive amounts of money on equipment you do not need or will never have the cause to use.

Connaught Stranger.