Soldiers Stress Report

[Connaught Stranger]

Fair enough Connaught, you have your experience, and I have mine... so Ill put it down to different time frame there, and different commands, since you have undoubtly reread my post exchange with Groundhog before making the above comments above...

Exo..

Hallo Exo1.,

Thank you for your reply, what I highlighted above is one of the points I was trying to get across in my posts, the conditions on the Irish Border since the introduction of better equipment, accommodation, food, even down to the fixed purpose built border posts are "light years" away from the conditions experienced post 1968 - 1985 era.

With regards P.T.S.D. related to shell-shock and combat conditions (etc) its hard for any ex Border Battalion veteran to truthfully claim this condition when there was nothing traumatic happening than having to bull ones boots for the annual G.O.C.'s visit

Connaught Stranger.

[Duffman]

Another expert opinion!!.. Thanks for that!!...

I don't need to experience the conditions in a WW1 trench to understand that living in one must of been a pretty shitty experience. Using this same assumption that being there, is not necessary to form an opinion, I wasn't on the border during this period but I feel strongly about the image of the DF and about spongers/whingers , no amount of Vietnam Veteran-esque nonsense will change my opinion "You weren't there man...you wouldn't understand".

I refer you to my previous post of the Middle Eastern Security Guard at McDonalds armed with a Blue Jumper, a Motorola and a prayer. Taking on torrents of racial slurs, verbal and physical abuse for a minimum wage.

THIS IS IN NO WAY A JIBE AT PTS!! OR AT THE PRESSURES OF BEING IN A HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT!! I have the utmost respect for any serving man and their responsibilities.

[Exo1]

Dear Exo1,

You posted your opinion and I will continue to post mine,

as far as I am concerned I am bang on the point, with my comments.

And at the risk of sounding "Big Headed" have the time on the Border to back it up.

Connaught Stranger

Fair enough Connaught, you have your experience, and I have mine... so Ill put it down to different time frame there, and different commands, since you have undoubtly reread my post exchange with Groundhog before making the above comments above...

Exo..

[Exo1]

I am saddened by the response from most of the posters on this thread. I am saddened at the lack of understanding of what is a very serious issue for soldiers. Post traumatic stress is a real issue and it affects each person differently. Some people can handle it and some people can't. During World War 1, those that couldn't handle were often shot for cowardice, during World War 2 they were deemed to be people of low moral fibre and were shunned by their peers. I thought that we had moved on from that and begun to understand the effect stress has on people. People who claim to have suffered from stress are not neccessarily "whingers" they do not need to "grow a pair". In fact given the reaction that people get from their peers (if the responses here are anything to go by) I think that anyone who is willing to speak has a pretty big set. In the 90's the DF recognised that about 90% of soldiers serving on UN missions experienced some level of post traumatic stress, however most recovered within a few months of returning. It was for that very reason that they started to improve the family liaison services in order to explain the impact and to provide support for those that needed it (I am not saying that what exists is perfect but there was certainly a recognition of a potential problem).

While I have never served in a traumatic or stressful environment I have seen the impact such service has had on my brother. From my observations the few months after he returned from overseas were always stressful, he was a different person, quite ratty all the time and often argued over minor things. Graduallly he would return to normal.

What we need to do rather than slagging off our fellow soldiers is to recognise that there is a problem and provide support rather than abuse to our comarades.

You make a valid point that in the past there has being some horrible mistakes made by superiors and peers alike when its comes to PTSD. WW1 being the most notorious, but continuing right the way through to the Vietnam war when the level of PTSD became a political issue in the US, and some serious research and development was done in the area. When I was in, there was a specialist in this area in the Medical corps, and she had the Reputation of being a first class quack!!.. for the resident "experts" and begrudgers, none of the ladz I served with or myself had ever the need to see her.. :wink:

That said, the Border region was certainly unique in terms of the operational and non operational dynamics that were present when I was there. One of the things I really liked about it was the good espiret de corps amoungst the ladz in ACOY and out to the rest of the 29th and 27th on occassion, we worked well, did a great job, and knew AT the time, we were doing our job, which was that of a professional soldier!!... Nothing more... The blabbering begrudery here does not make our job any less important and we executed it to the highest standards of the defence forces, which needs to be improved by what I have seen on this thread thus far!!.. We were, are and always will be to our dying days, Soldiers of the Irish Republic!!... That means something to me still, and it saddens me that the best battalions in the country (Ill speak for Eastern Command only) served on the border, and seems now to be the target of a sour grapes fight!!...

[Connaught Stranger]

Sheesh, Im like a broken record here!!.. Read my comments in my debate with Groundhog and get the perspective on the border... Cos it patently obvious by some of what you posted that youre quite a ways off the point... :redface:

Dear Exo1,

You posted your opinion and I will continue to post mine,

as far as I am concerned I am bang on the point, with my comments.

And at the risk of sounding "Big Headed" have the time on the Border to back it up.

Connaught Stranger

[Exo1]

Bravo Connaught Stranger!! Well said.

Another expert opinion!!.. Thanks for that!!...

[Exo1]

It is you who are totally wrong with your comments. (Apart from reference to Overseas service, which was not so traumatic for most members of the Defence Force who served overseas, only the few who were involved in war-like situations which involved: land-mines, shelling, and shots fired,) this is about men who were stationed on the border between 1968 onwards until the situation with regards accommodation, recreation, food, etc etc was drastically improved in the early 1980's.

I, on the other hand have a very good idea as I was stationed on the border, at Finner Camp from 1976, and the biggest problem if anything, encountered was caused by drinking in excess, and petty crime.

Reference to WW1 or any war, for that matter plays no role here, no one were being shot at, no one was living in trenches, no one was under continual bombardment or had to witness their comrades being blown to pieces, and we were not continually exposed to bad weather conditions, and we were not the targets of daily terrorist attack.

So there was nothing to get P.T.S.D. from, it was basically a 08:30 to 16:30hrs daily job, most men when on leave, long weekend could get home well inside of 12 hours at the max 24 hours, many had girlfriends living locally, many never were pushed about going home to see their families to often. In fact many joined to get away from home.

And the main point was we all VOLUNTEERED to join the military, the option to buy ones self out was there, as well as the option not to extend your service after the initial 3 years was up.

This report, which the thread is based upon, is about how bad the military had it, is a dammed lie, perpetrated by people on the scrounge for free money, it seems Ireland has fallen into the American "Lets Sue" mentality, and the words I would use for any man who claims "his service was so terrible on the border" is pathetic.Yes there were whiners, there will always be whiners, but, why did the perpetrator's of this myth wait so long before doing anything about it.

I am perfectly willing to stand in a Court of Law in Ireland and declare that service in the Irish Defence Force at the time was not as bad as these arse-holes claim.

Connaught Stranger

Sheesh, Im like a broken record here!!.. Read my comments in my debate with Groundhog and get the perspective on the border... Cos it patently obvious by some of what you posted that youre quite a ways off the point... :redface:

[Duffman]

Bravo Connaught Stranger!! Well said.

[Connaught Stranger]

I am saddened by the response from most of the posters on this thread. I am saddened at the lack of understanding of what is a very serious issue for soldiers. Post traumatic stress is a real issue and it affects each person differently. Some people can handle it and some people can't. During World War 1, those that couldn't handle were often shot for cowardice, during World War 2 they were deemed to be people of low moral fibre and were shunned by their peers. I thought that we had moved on from that and begun to understand the effect stress has on people. People who claim to have suffered from stress are not neccessarily "whingers" they do not need to "grow a pair". In fact given the reaction that people get from their peers (if the responses here are anything to go by) I think that anyone who is willing to speak has a pretty big set. In the 90's the DF recognised that about 90% of soldiers serving on UN missions experienced some level of post traumatic stress, however most recovered within a few months of returning. It was for that very reason that they started to improve the family liaison services in order to explain the impact and to provide support for those that needed it (I am not saying that what exists is perfect but there was certainly a recognition of a potential problem).

While I have never served in a traumatic or stressful environment I have seen the impact such service has had on my brother. From my observations the few months after he returned from overseas were always stressful, he was a different person, quite ratty all the time and often argued over minor things. Graduallly he would return to normal.

What we need to do rather than slagging off our fellow soldiers is to recognise that there is a problem and provide support rather than abuse to our comarades.

It is you who are totally wrong with your comments. (Apart from reference to Overseas service, which was not so traumatic for most members of the Defence Force who served overseas, only the few who were involved in war-like situations which involved: land-mines, shelling, and shots fired,) this is about men who were stationed on the border between 1968 onwards until the situation with regards accommodation, recreation, food, etc etc was drastically improved in the early 1980's.

I, on the other hand have a very good idea as I was stationed on the border, at Finner Camp from 1976, and the biggest problem if anything, encountered was caused by drinking in excess, and petty crime.

Reference to WW1 or any war, for that matter plays no role here, no one were being shot at, no one was living in trenches, no one was under continual bombardment or had to witness their comrades being blown to pieces, and we were not continually exposed to bad weather conditions, and we were not the targets of daily terrorist attack.

So there was nothing to get P.T.S.D. from, it was basically a 08:30 to 16:30hrs daily job, most men when on leave, long weekend could get home well inside of 12 hours at the max 24 hours, many had girlfriends living locally, many never were pushed about going home to see their families to often. In fact many joined to get away from home.

And the main point was we all VOLUNTEERED to join the military, the option to buy ones self out was there, as well as the option not to extend your service after the initial 3 years was up.

This report, which the thread is based upon, is about how bad the military had it, is a dammed lie, perpetrated by people on the scrounge for free money, it seems Ireland has fallen into the American "Lets Sue" mentality, and the words I would use for any man who claims "his service was so terrible on the border" is pathetic.Yes there were whiners, there will always be whiners, but, why did the perpetrator's of this myth wait so long before doing anything about it.

I am perfectly willing to stand in a Court of Law in Ireland and declare that service in the Irish Defence Force at the time was not as bad as these arse-holes claim.

Connaught Stranger

[Bravo20]

I am saddened by the response from most of the posters on this thread. I am saddened at the lack of understanding of what is a very serious issue for soldiers. Post traumatic stress is a real issue and it affects each person differently. Some people can handle it and some people can't. During World War 1, those that couldn't handle were often shot for cowardice, during World War 2 they were deemed to be people of low moral fibre and were shunned by their peers. I thought that we had moved on from that and begun to understand the effect stress has on people. People who claim to have suffered from stress are not neccessarily "whingers" they do not need to "grow a pair". In fact given the reaction that people get from their peers (if the responses here are anything to go by) I think that anyone who is willing to speak has a pretty big set. In the 90's the DF recognised that about 90% of soldiers serving on UN missions experienced some level of post traumatic stress, however most recovered within a few months of returning. It was for that very reason that they started to improve the family liaison services in order to explain the impact and to provide support for those that needed it (I am not saying that what exists is perfect but there was certainly a recognition of a potential problem).

While I have never served in a traumatic or stressful environment I have seen the impact such service has had on my brother. From my observations the few months after he returned from overseas were always stressful, he was a different person, quite ratty all the time and often argued over minor things. Graduallly he would return to normal.

What we need to do rather than slagging off our fellow soldiers is to recognise that there is a problem and provide support rather than abuse to our comarades.

[Exo1]

I can contribute to this argument only in the context of having served on the other side of the border.

Whilst we had other things to occupy us, such as the occassional MK15 mortar, or landmine, I must say that I have to agree with some of what B Inman's original thread said. Being exposed to constant hatred, real or perceived, does grind one down. I can say, from personal experience, that that is the one thing that really got to me at that time. And in hindsight, it did cause me a degree of stress. You can have all sorts of drills to counter threat a,b or even c. But hatred, being constantly told you deserve to die, worrying about your family etc,etc,etc is hard to deal with.

Stress manifests itself in different ways. For some, it is easily dealt with. I consider myself in that category. For others, not so. I have served with a number of men who have taken their own lives in the last 10 years. Not good. I was at a funeral on Friday, of a former colleague, who died at 41 years old. The Minister made mention of the fact that he suffered from 'flashbacks', and that he tried to deal with them by drinking. He drank himself to death. No-one could help him.

I can't say what it was like for the Irish Soldier or Policeman. But I do imagine that a combination of difficult working conditions, exposure to abuse from civilians, a feeling of a lack of appreciation for your service from the general public etc,etc combined with the risk of a 'contact' could cause certain people stress and possible emotional problems in later life.

Thats my tuppence h'appenys worth

Sorry if I've`ranted on.

Thanks for the insight from the other side of the Border....

[Exo1]

Hallo Spider,

the Irish Defence Force were NOT in anyway subject to the same situation as the British Soldiers in Northern Ireland, apart from the odd shout of "FREE STATE BASTARDS" as we drove through Bundoran in our military vehicles from the Northern Nationalists who flocked there for their annual summer holidays and the odd punch-up in the bars and discos, I cannot recall any specific threats.

The Irish Defence Forces, were not being actively targeted by the I.R.A. and we were never fired at, by them, to my knowledge, in fact in the I.R.A. training pamphlets captured / obtained were instructions of what to do should they be discovered by members of the Republics Security Forces, along the lines of:





I defy any past serving individual of the Irish Defence Forces to state a single case of the hardships they are claiming and to back it up with proof.

Probably the biggest gripe would be about the amount of overtime the Garda on the Border checkpoints were clocking up, compared to the paltry Border Allowance received by the soldiers working alongside them.

Connaught Stranger

Read my posts exchange with Groundhog, I have made the case perfectly clear in it the position of myself as an exBorder Soldier and that of my brother soldiers...

[Exo1]

But yet you will not condemn those who contributed to this report which demeans anyone who ever served in the DF.

Groundhog, Im defending my brother soldiers, whom were never whingers, and to be honest, although 11 years has passed now, I could not see them now, nor whinging 40 years from now... its just not done!!.. then as is now... The 29th had some "local values" which were directly suited to the tasks we were set, and this was ingrained into every soldier... one of them was an acceptance of the job at hand, the continuing nature of it and getting girly about it was forbidden.... those values are as true to me now as they were then, so you can understand why I react to those who desrespect my brother soldiers... cos they would never do the same in return..

ACOY & The 29th have conducted themselves in the highest standards of the Defences Forces, their members a credit and their mission complete!!.. Thats all the "recognition" I need... I know it, my bother soldiers know it and thats all that counts!!.. any amount of desrespect from other elements of the Defence Forces or the Civilian Population will never change those unwaivering facts, never!!....

Exo..

[Connaught Stranger]

I can't say what it was like for the Irish Soldier or Policeman. But I do imagine that a combination of difficult working conditions, exposure to abuse from civilians, a feeling of a lack of appreciation for your service from the general public etc,etc combined with the risk of a 'contact' could cause certain people stress and possible emotional problems in later life.

Thats my tuppence h'appenys worth

Sorry if I've`ranted on.

Hallo Spider,

the Irish Defence Force were NOT in anyway subject to the same situation as the British Soldiers in Northern Ireland, apart from the odd shout of "FREE STATE BASTARDS" as we drove through Bundoran in our military vehicles from the Northern Nationalists who flocked there for their annual summer holidays and the odd punch-up in the bars and discos, I cannot recall any specific threats.

The Irish Defence Forces, were not being actively targeted by the I.R.A. and we were never fired at, by them, to my knowledge, in fact in the I.R.A. training pamphlets captured / obtained were instructions of what to do should they be discovered by members of the Republics Security Forces, along the lines of:

" 1. Approach the leader of the Security Forces, explain you are on training / mission.

2. Explain your mission is directed solely against the "British Occupation Forces in Northern Ireland" and request that you and your men be let go with their weapons.

3. Do not resist arrest, do not use weapons against the Security Forces of the Republic.

4. Any failure to comply with the above, will result in a Republican Court Martial where the penalty of death or a lesser sentence can be handed down if you are found guilty of contravening these regulations.

I defy any past serving individual of the Irish Defence Forces to state a single case of the hardships they are claiming and to back it up with proof.

Probably the biggest gripe would be about the amount of overtime the Garda on the Border checkpoints were clocking up, compared to the paltry Border Allowance received by the soldiers working alongside them.

Connaught Stranger

[Groundhog]

As for defending whingers, I think I have made myself perfectly clear that my brother soldiers were anything but whingers. They had faults like us all but whining like a little girls was not one of them.... they were in my time there stand up guys, whom I felt honoured serving with...

But yet you will not condemn those who contributed to this report which demeans anyone who ever served in the DF.