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The 'P's and the 'Blame game'

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  • The 'P's and the 'Blame game'

    Before the thread on the subject of organising was closed I was accused of having no valid imupt ..

    Everybody for got the 'P's

    Proper Planning and Preperation Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

    Every body who partakes has a responsiblity to make sure that at their own level all the personal admin is carried out in order to relieve pressure on those who have responsiblity for running exercises at a higher level.

    If NCO's and officers have to run around after poorly prepared individuals with a percieved notion of what the higher ups responsibility towards the organisation of an exercise how can they be expected to plan an exercise without having to slow things down to a level where it may appear to be disorganised.?


    Anyone who tells you that the PDF have no inclusion in the planning of any exercise is totally out of touch with what has to be organised behind the scenes before any exercise can ever take place.

    Everybody on the exercise from the admin people down to the exercising people have responsibilty to make it work even at a level above their own..

    If you want to play the blame game on those above your own rank... bring it on.... ask about how NCO's have to act in both directions at once to make things work?

    How the basic level stuff is forgotten by those who have responsibilities unto them selves and those around them to be organised and not have to be spoon fed at every hands turn!

    The level of self containment amongst junior soldiers is is very disheartning to say the least and is a constant nightmare to everybody in the command network

    If the two star gunner , trooper, private ,signalman etc could at least have their own shit sorted it would be a gigantic step toward at least lifting a level of worry off some who are already under more strain than their rank dictates.

    I have contributed to more exercises and madmark has been there along side in the same exercises, we have supported the same officers, even rescued one or tow from total damnation but always our greatest problem was dealing with less than switched on individuals in the lower ranks.

    I find it typical of some one new in the door to the reserve to be willing to criticize well beyond a level of comprehension well above that of their own percieved knowledge.

    The Re Org Situation moved the whole thing up a gear and many exercises have been conducted on a level far beyond that ever envisaged of the FCA twenty years ago.

    Ok so you got a bad one or two, I could say the same but everyone was alearning curve because I was openminded enough to take some thing away.

    the first PSO was a shambles but we did learn.. we came back for the next one armed with what we hadn't known the previous year...and we are NCO's... and hung around long enough to pass on the information.

    Don't try tar every effort that people make with the same abortion type picture because some shambolic episode which went beyond your bounds of experiece didn't go quite the way you wanted it to go.

    Its not a ****ing democracy and the RDF will not pander to your needs,

    If you want patience and understanding ring the ****ing samaritians ... in the mean time let those who at least make an effort get on with it.

    You want to play the blame game, have a look around at those who stand beside you and sort them before you blame those who lead you.
    hptmurphy
    Commander in Chief
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 1 April 2008, 21:47.
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

  • #2
    Very well said

    Comment


    • #3
      What he said. I remember my last ex(Prob my last ever at this rate), preparing map to brief the sqn hq with Troop commander, briefing troops,organising radio call signs, weapons, NVE etc, then having to go back to the troopers to show some(who were 3*) how to pack their kit properly and cam up, carry their weapons, operate radios, dress properly for the job in hand. Some were too busy smoking a fag outside the billet to do it for themselves, or even ask another to help.

      Only to have an absolute tool of a passing officer ask me "why aren't you cammed up Sergeant?".

      eh because I was too busy doing my job to worry about myself before the detachment? Something one should have learnt at osifer school?

      If the Guy on the bottom of the ladder can do his job to the best of his ability, it makes the job of those above much easier.

      And yes, I still managed to have all my kit together, and be cammed up before the ex begun.


      Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

      Comment


      • #4
        well said indeed murph..... I will be stealing that speech..... I hope you dont mind.
        Trouble, Trouble, I tried to chase trouble but its chasing me.
        Trouble, trouble, trouble with a capitol T
        do do do do do do do da do do do. etc etc......

        Comment


        • #5
          True enough Mr Murph.

          BUT, If the basic exercises to teach people how to look after themselves and their kit isnt done at the start then this is were all the problems stem from!!

          For example: sticking a recruit into a PIA and expecting them to know what to do is pointless.

          The main reason for the above situation seems to be a chronic lack of 2 and 3 stars, and the reason for this seems to be that (apart from jobs and such like) there is nothing interesting enough to keep them in. Hopefully with the interbags and the new continuation training syllabus, things will change.

          As for lazy trooper's/pte's not getting themselves ready, thats the job of a sec. 2ic. And if their not doing their job then, 1, the pl Sgt grows out of them or 2, the pl Sgt grows out of the sec. comdr!!

          Which brings up another problem of NCO's not knowing how to do thier job beacuse they didnt get enough field command training on their NCO course. Sure they can do a SIA and set up a patrol harbour, but how many would know their role in a PIA or FIBUA or checkpoint. I'm not saying it's their fault cause its not! Its the fault of the people who decide how much training we get and how long we have to do it!!
          Woo Hoo, finally moderated!!!!! In that select band of people who speak their mind instead of being sheep!

          Comment


          • #6
            As for lazy trooper's/pte's not getting themselves ready, thats the job of a sec
            I was actually agreeing with you up to a point but would disgaree with this point.

            personal admin is run under the buddy buddy system..yes a good corporal will check but he certainly is not responsible for it.

            The main reason for the above situation seems to be a chronic lack of 2 and 3 stars
            but some would say that they have sufficent two to three stars, but I would tend to agree with your point that suitably qualified junior ranks being the problem.

            A lot opf this problem stemmed from the mentality that prevailed prior to modulation of PNCO's course 's ..as in' their here long enough promote them!'

            In response to your last point , think quality versus quantity. Drills etc and lectures can teach alot of stuff around a barracks prior to going out on the ground. No point going on the ground spending half a day gearing up for a single SIA.

            If you are a section commander you identify what you need to have /know and make it known to those below and above you before going out on the ground.

            Which brings up another problem of NCO's not knowing how to do thier job beacuse they didnt get enough field command training on their NCO course
            Given my NCO's course was atwo week affair prior to modulistaion and I have never done a standards course but still hold the rank I found buddying up to some one during the limited time on the course or sourcing information my self and learning by my own mistakes and those of others I learned the job.

            Again its back to guys going on PNCO's courses far too early in the career stage and being allowed to progress without having the basics off to a fine art.
            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

            Comment


            • #7
              what he said. HOWEVER

              I see great motivated lads coming through the new PNCO system - just not enough of them
              "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

              "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

              Comment


              • #8
                some valid points murph
                i believe the rdf suffers from overextending itself , it builds on foundations it does not have the basic skills are lacking yet units still find time to do gucchi exercises like fibua ( not that this skill is not valid and relevant )and helicopter drills there should be no move away from any subject until it is mastered be this shaving or basic field craft

                as an nco i am responsible for those beneath me if they make a balls up it is my balls up for having not properly instructed them even if they are useless one brain celled wasters yes they are answerable to me but i am in turn answerable to those above me ..
                "take a look to the sky right before you die, its the last time you will"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                  I was actually agreeing with you up to a point but would disgaree with this point.

                  personal admin is run under the buddy buddy system..yes a good corporal will check but he certainly is not responsible for it.
                  A section commander is responsible for everything his section does! Its called the burden of command.



                  Originally posted by hptmurphy
                  Again its back to guys going on PNCO's courses far too early in the career stage and being allowed to progress without having the basics off to a fine art.
                  Couldnt agree more!!!!!
                  Woo Hoo, finally moderated!!!!! In that select band of people who speak their mind instead of being sheep!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                    Given my NCO's course was atwo week affair prior to modulistaion and I have never done a standards course but still hold the rank I found buddying up to some one during the limited time on the course or sourcing information my self and learning by my own mistakes and those of others I learned the job.
                    In exactly the same boat, however I probably don't have anywhere near the amount of mandays you have over the last 3-4 years (work & exams!)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by spudula View Post
                      A section commander is responsible for everything his section does!
                      ...... AND FAILS TO DO!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I see great motivated lads coming through the new PNCO system - just not enough of them
                        Yep! Thats the point the ranks have stagnated because of the failure of the system in the past

                        Some fantastic young talent out there but the promise of an NCO's course which was the bait to keep them in the past no longer holds true..

                        problem with promoting guys with little experience being they rarely get the oppertunity to upskill themselves and are only one link in the food chain above those who they command.

                        A section commander is responsible for everything his section does! Its called the burden of command
                        ultimate responsibility but those who he commands have a duty unto themselves, those they serve with and to the commander to at least have their own basics in order before the section can performas a complete unit.

                        Took me until I was in my mid thirties to have the confidence to take on taskings that I knew I could carry out without fear of failure but ib saying that I only joined the reserve at 25 spent three years before my NCO's course because I knew I wasn't ready and then waited another 8 years for my third stripe.

                        The learning curve at the time was smooth enough but I had one PSO under my belt and was confident in my own ability before I took over as recce commander and had always used other skills gained in mangement roles outside the reserve to teach people what I wanted. Often went outside the system , stood on a few toes, was known as a loose canon but got to where I wanted to be eventually.

                        Time was no problem but things change and because of work my commitment level is almost nil but should I get to go back to it I gladly would, but feel that because of the cahnges in the sytem all of what I used to do is still beyond the realms of what the reserve has become.

                        On the infantry assesments last year I stepped on toes and rattled a few cages but the job was done properly and I was happy to do that.

                        If the second line jobs are to be where my future lies at least I can carry out these taskings knowing that I did perform in the primary taskings at the best level I could.

                        Listen and learn at all levels, take time to reflect on the learning and move forward when you belive yourself to be ready.
                        hptmurphy
                        Commander in Chief
                        Last edited by hptmurphy; 2 April 2008, 20:50.
                        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Got to say everyone is talking sence.

                          I am one of those that believes that a section is only as good as its worst member. By the section working together to constantly strive to inprove that person leads to a better all round section.

                          My PNCO course was a 2 week afair also but I had a lot of experience as a 3* and thus had well covered things like SIA, Patrol Harbours, Patrolling and even being sect 2IC. As a driving instructor I had also MOI. THis is something that the new system does not seem to allow for. There are some "mature" privates that should be moved forward but many fall down for various reasons, not just fitness, when attempting the new PNCO traning. The new system is a one size fits all and lads with good ability are being let drift.
                          Without supplies no army is brave.

                          —Frederick the Great,

                          Instructions to his Generals, 1747

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                          • #14
                            cant speak for other units, but in mine it appears to be: "if we have 5 places, we need to send 5 people". It doesnt matter if we dont have 5 privates that are good enough or have enough experience to do the job at the end of the day
                            My own unit turned this on its head a few years back and have not sent anyone on a PNCO's course in about 5 years.

                            If the PNCO's haven't covered the skills at the 3* grade they ain't going anywhere.

                            Brave move. but was a result of the fact we had NCOs who couldn't do the basic things like driving and some sort of gunnery so its now you have qualified in one or other of these disciplines and then we will consider you
                            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Until recently we always had more ptes than places.
                              For years the places went females in order to establish gender balance or to shooting team members as a reward for winning/ doing well at the falling plates.

                              This caused a lot of problems since many had little of no experience outside competition shooting.

                              Thankfully that was changed and an eligability criteria was drawn up. Now lads with experience are going but just can't seem to complete it. This year 50% of those attempting the course dropped out already. They say it is too difficult but their mates say they never wanted to do it in the firstplace!!
                              Without supplies no army is brave.

                              —Frederick the Great,

                              Instructions to his Generals, 1747

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