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  • #91
    Originally posted by ollie View Post
    ah but to the df the rdf dont count or at least thats their attitude
    Think back to the Sam Browne belt saga for RDF officers. It was spelt out at the time
    that " DF personnel " meant PDF and RDF

    Otherwise it would specify " PDF "
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

    Comment


    • #92
      It is when it suits the MAs.

      Sure the RDF are volunteers and not part-time employees yet get issued P60s and certificates of employment levies
      "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

      Comment


      • #93
        “employee” means a person of any age who has entered into or works under (or, where the employment has ceased, entered into or worked under) a contract of employment and references, in relation to an employer, to an employee shall be construed as references to an employee employed by that employer; and for the purposes of this Act, a person holding office under, or in the service of, the State (including a civil servant within the meaning of the Civil Service Regulation Act, 1956 ) shall be deemed to be an employee employed by the State or Government, as the case may be, and an officer or servant of a local authority for the purposes of the Local Government Act, 1941 , or of a harbour authority, health board or vocational education committee shall be deemed to be an employee employed by the authority, board or committee, as the case may be;
        http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/...5/sec0003.html

        the Civil Service" means the Civil Service of the Government and the Civil Service of the State;
        http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1956/...6/sec0001.html

        However, the Minister has said

        Members of the Reserve Defence Force are not considered to be part time workers in the employment of the Department of Defence as defined by the Protection of Employees (Part Time Work) Act 2001 therefore the Act has no application to members of the Reserve.
        But,

        According to DCoS Support

        The Defence Forces is an equal opportunities employer and is fully committed to the values of equal opportunities in all its procedures
        Last edited by ZULU; 8 June 2010, 19:32.
        "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

        Comment


        • #94
          DAIL Answers Wednesday 7th July 2010.

          Defence Forces Recruitment

          27. Deputy P. J. Sheehan asked the Minister for Defence the number of staff appointments recommended in Defence Forces medical service review that have been made to date; scheduled be by September 2010; timeframe which time he expects full implementation this review; and if will make a statement on matter. [29978/10]

          35. Deputy Joe McHugh asked the Minister for Defence when the central medical unit recommended by PA Consulting Group review of services will be formally established; and if he make a statement on matter. [29912/10]

          56. Deputy Michael D. Higgins asked the Minister for Defence the progress made regarding commitment given in renewed Programme for Government to develop role and contribution of Medical Corps expand its capacity deliver a range medical facilities on UN mandated missions [30170/10]

          Deputy Tony Killeen: The PA Consulting Group report assessed the current arrangements for the provision of medical services and proposed a model for future delivery of those services. It recommended a programme of major change and working groups have been set up to progress the various projects identified. These continue to meet regularly and all have submitted reports.

          The line officer, in the rank of colonel, to command the new centralised medical unit for the medical corps took up duty on 14 June 2010. He has the responsibility of implementing the model for the future medical service. PA did not identify structures, numbers and processes within the centralised command structure in detail.

          The organisation and establishment working group was asked to recommend a structure to include staff appointments for the future medical service. It has now completed its final report, which has been submitted to the steering group for consideration and approval. Final reports from three of the working groups - training and education, financial arrangements and outsourcing, and organisation and establishment - have now been completed. The final report of the future medical information system working group will be completed in the next two weeks and, along with the other three final reports, will be considered by the steering group, with a decision expected by the end of this month. The clinical review working group is not due to submit its final report until 30 September 2010; however, monthly reports are being submitted in the interim. It is only following completion of this phase that full implementation of the PA recommendations can be achieved.

          The process for implementation also requires that there must be consultation with the representative associations regarding any change within the scope of representation. It is expected that there will be substantial progress before the end of the year in implementing recommendations.

          The development of the medical corps forms part of the agreed programme for Government. This includes the expansion of the capacity of the medical corps to deliver a range of medical facilities on UN-mandated missions. I am committed to providing a sustainable medical service to meet the needs of the Defence Forces both at home and abroad. The structure and systems recommended by PA have been designed to meet the demands and needs of the modern Defence Forces at home and overseas. I assure the House that Defence Forces personnel requiring medical treatment are getting the care they need.

          Deputy David Stanton: Will there be one centralised medical command structure, as recommended, when all these reviews are completed? In addition, will there be a shift towards illness prevention and health promotion in the new structure?

          Deputy Tony Killeen: Illness prevention and health promotion are dealt with quite positively in the Defence Forces. By definition, all members are within a particular age cohort - from late teens or early 20s to mid-50s - and are in good health when they join, based on medical checks. Thus, their requirements in the health area are quite different from those of the population at large. One of these is preparation for overseas service. I do not have any particular concerns in this regard.

          As I mentioned, I am waiting for the fourth working group report, and the steering group has been meeting regularly, updating its information on the basis of recommendations. It has been a slow and somewhat fraught process. However, in the end, particularly after the last report is received in September, we will move towards a much better quality of service, perhaps along the lines the Deputy intends.

          Deputy Brian O’Shea: Since 1 January this year, how many people have left the medical corps for any reason? Has there been any new recruitment? Pending the implementation of the new structure, is the old structure becoming much less effective than it was? What has been happening in this regard?

          Deputy Tony Killeen: I am pretty sure some people have left. I will obtain the exact numbers for the Deputy. Some have also been recruited during that period. It is an unusual medical area which is quite attractive to some, in terms of recruitment, and entirely unattractive to others. Recruitment is not as straightforward as one might expect.

          Deputy David Stanton: What is the level of illness and injury in the Defence Forces?

          Deputy Tony Killeen: Off the top of my head I could not say, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, but I will try to find out, although it will be difficult to obtain detailed information. When it is available I will send it to the Deputy.

          Comment


          • #95
            Deputy David Stanton: What is the level of illness and injury in the Defence Forces?

            This is an area of healthcare which I believe has not been addressed to any significant degree within the Defence forces. Indeed the concept of injury/illness prevention could have huge cost saving potential to DF when put to good use.

            The u.s. military widely uses injury prevention and health promotion practices in their own
            medical field: where these services form part of alarger preventatvie measure to reduce
            costs in treating illnesses and injury in Army. just to help reference my point i have forwarded an URL address of information page which demonstrates the importance of prevention in health services in the U.S. Army are there are some interesting statistics aswell.


            http://phc.amedd.army.mil/ptipt/default.aspx[/B]


            My point when you reflect on the role of other areas of health care were illness/injury prevention services have been used. Much anecdotal evidence has shown these services can be effective particulary to army by minimizing the cost associated with treating and managing certain injuries and illness in interm before they become a problem later on during the soliders carreer. Indeed certain ailments can't acute injuries wounds etc.
            as these occur spontaneously. However is this a Service the DF medical Service can office
            particularly with the current infrastructural ?

            visit the website let mey know what you think ?

            Comment


            • #96
              DAIL Answer Tuesday 24th May 2011

              45. Deputy Peadar Tóibín asked the Minister for Defence the position regarding the implementation of recommendations from the Defence Forces Medical Services Review; the recommendations he will now be prioritising; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12053/11]


              Deputy Alan Shatter: The PA report presented an assessment of the arrangements then in place for the provision of medical services for the Defence Forces and proposed a model for the future delivery of those services. The consultants recommended a programme of major change. As recommended by PA, a number of working groups were set up to proceed with the various projects. The working groups were tasked with identifying the practical steps that needed to be taken to achieve implementation of the PA vision for the future medical service. Of the five working groups, four have now completed their final reports, which have been accepted by the steering committee, while the fifth is due to submit its final report at the end of this month.


              One of the key issues identified by PA was the requirement to provide for appropriate support and administrative structures to support the management and delivery of modern medical services. However, the PA report did not identify the detailed structures, numbers and processes needed within the recommended centralised command structure. This is the type of work which was undertaken by the working groups.


              In the case of the recommended central command structure, the detailed report of the organisation and establishment working group has been approved and the implementation of the new central medical unit can now commence. This is a priority for the coming months and consultations with the representative associations, which have already been briefed on the medical review, are ongoing in this regard. The structure and systems recommended by PA are designed to meet the demands and needs of the modern Defence Forces. I am fully committed to providing a sustainable medical service to meet the needs of the Defence Forces both at home and overseas.


              Deputy Jonathan O’Brien: I thank the Minister for his reply. Four of the five working groups have completed their work, while the fifth is due to report at the end of the month. Did these groups consider the different areas covered by the review? Will an additional report be forthcoming when the fifth working group has completed its deliberations? One of the measures which has been put in place is designed to ensure that there will be a systematic collection of all medical data by the Defence Forces in order that they can plan better and distribute health resources to meet health care demands. Will the Minister comment on that matter?


              Deputy Alan Shatter: When the final working group has completed its deliberations we will have a clear vision of the way forward. I am anxious to implement what is necessary in this area. It is important that members of the Defence Forces should have available to them a modern medical service which meets their needs. We are going to ensure that we take the necessary steps to implement the conclusions reached by the various groups. I will be in a position, at a later stage, to provide the Deputy with additional information in that regard.

              Comment


              • #97
                More Written Answers from the Dail - 24th May 2011


                295. Deputy Seán Kenny asked the Minister for Defence the number of doctors, nurses, dentists and so on in the Defence Forces Medical Corps; the number of vacancies in the corps; and if additional recruitment is likely in the corps. [12701/11]


                Minister for Defence (Deputy Alan Shatter): The PA Consulting Review of the Defence Forces Medical Services was completed in 2009, with implementation of the Review’s recommendations progressing. In the context of the commitment in the Programme for Government to implement the Review’s recommendation I expect that substantial progress will be made in this regard over the coming months. An important part of the implementation has been the establishment of a new structure for the Medical Corps. Within the new structure there is provision for 32 Doctors along with 8 Dentists and 12 Nurses. Currently there are 17 Doctors (including a psychiatrist), 5 Dentists and 14 Nurses serving in the Defence Forces Medical Corps.


                The Government Decision on the implementation of savings measures on public service numbers is being applied to the Defence Forces in general. However, given the current shortage of Doctors approval was received from the Department of Finance for an exemption from the moratorium on recruitment in order to hold a competition for the appointment of Doctors to the Defence Forces Medical Corps. This competition has commenced.
                Last edited by Kieran Marum; 27 May 2011, 14:14.

                Comment


                • #98
                  http://www.military.ie/careers/speci...medical-doctor

                  Any doctors in the house?


                  Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Did we really need to spend all this money on a report to tell us that as it stands the AMC is

                    not value for money- anyone of us could have said that they need more Doctors

                    medics with the capacity to administer injections both at home and abroad- fewer scorpy ared

                    horse faced Nurses who hapened to be married to Officers; and an actual Soldier to be in charge

                    of an Army Corps rather than a Doctor.
                    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                    Are full of passionate intensity.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
                      An actual Soldier to be in charge

                      of an Army Corps rather than a Doctor.
                      I don't know if that would really be so good.

                      Would you reall go down that route?
                      It would be like posting a non tech person over the CIS or TVMS?

                      There has to be a certain balance between the tech needs of the corps and the admin need of the DF.

                      In the HSE they went down the road of lots of non medical managers and look where they are now.
                      In Yougoslavia the Doctors were given a budget and told to supply the required service. They actually did it and the system remains and seems to function to deliver the service long after the comunist system itself failed.
                      Without supplies no army is brave.

                      —Frederick the Great,

                      Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                      Comment


                      • "The Programme Group that has been charged with overseeing the progress of the Working Groups briefed the Steering Group on progress in January". - Feb 2010.

                        Geez - how long is this going to take? If you commmission a consultants report to review the service, why is it necessary to set up all these groups some of whom STILL have not reported......! The Gov't replies are dripping with procrastination.

                        Hate to be pessimistic but its all soooo depressingly familiar with the AMC. As for putting a Line Col in charge of the AMC - well at least the drill will improve....!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by luchi View Post
                          I don't know if that would really be so good.

                          Would you reall go down that route?
                          It would be like posting a non tech person over the CIS or TVMS?

                          There has to be a certain balance between the tech needs of the corps and the admin need of the DF.

                          In the HSE they went down the road of lots of non medical managers and look where they are now.
                          In Yougoslavia the Doctors were given a budget and told to supply the required service. They actually did it and the system remains and seems to function to deliver the service long after the comunist system itself failed.
                          You re making the classic mistake that civvies make there Lu

                          in that you are comparing the Defence Frces which is a unique organisation

                          with a civie run of the mill organisation-

                          The Director of Sigsnal is a Soldier, he started as a Cadet served overseas

                          did Oderly Officer etc etc- the D Tpt was a Cadet- served overseas as a Soldier

                          did OO etc etc

                          D Med when he was a lad didnt join the DF-

                          It could be said of him and the other Doctors that if they were any good they wouldnt

                          have needed to join the DF
                          Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                          Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                          The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                          The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                          The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                          Are full of passionate intensity.

                          Comment


                          • I presume DMed would have responsibility for:
                            clinical governence
                            setting medical procedures/policies
                            ensuring MOs are kept up to date on their CPD etc

                            Would it not make sense to get a DE who knows this stuff in charge?

                            Comment


                            • In the HSE they went down the road of lots of non medical managers and look where they are now.
                              s
                              The US Health services does ok with non medical managers. There were a trillion mistakes made with the HSE but the mistake in that areas was adding an extra leyer without removing all the old Health board structures, or firing anyone for incompetence. Don't mistake O'Reilly for anything other than an IMO shill ( the other IMO ).
                              "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                              "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
                                You re making the classic mistake that civvies make there Lu

                                in that you are comparing the Defence Frces which is a unique organisation

                                with a civie run of the mill organisation-

                                The Director of Sigsnal is a Soldier, he started as a Cadet served overseas

                                did Oderly Officer etc etc- the D Tpt was a Cadet- served overseas as a Soldier

                                did OO etc etc

                                D Med when he was a lad didnt join the DF-

                                It could be said of him and the other Doctors that if they were any good they wouldnt

                                have needed to join the DF
                                +1

                                Comment

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