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Army without 'vital vehicles'

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  • Army without 'vital vehicles'

    Army without 'vital vehicles'
    The Irish Independent
    SAVINGS in the Defence budget are to pay for a new luxury €10m government executive jet - but cutbacks have left Irish soldiers without vital armoured vehicles needed to protect them on dangerous UN or EU missions.

    While the Government last week cancelled a possible €45m order for a new large Airbus-style executive jet to replace the existing Gulfstream 4, it is to go ahead with buying a smaller Learjet 45 jet, expected to cost between €8m and €10m.

    The new plane has a cabin "designed for uncompromising comfort" according to the manufacturers, and the Learjet will replace a 23-year-old Beechcraft plane used by the Air Corps.

    However, the Army battalion of nearly 800 soldiers preparing for the EU Rapid Reaction Force, which becomes operational this year, has been left without a fleet of new light-armoured vehicles promised by Defence Minister Michael Smith in 2001.

    The purchase of the 65 new vehicles, to cost about €20m, has been "deferred", according to the Department of Defence.

    The armoured vehicles, similar to the US Army Humvee jeeps used in the latest Iraq war, would have been used by Irish troops for patrolling and reconnaissance and working with the new fleet of Mowag armoured personnel carriers.

    Sources pointed out that despite large-scale investment over the last five years the Defence Forces are still without basic military equipment used by most other armies, including even a single transport helicopter, main battle tank, or fighter jet.

  • #2
    Of course, an infantry battalion doesn't actually need MBTs or fighters...

    Does the article imply that the Eagle was actually selected?

    Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!


    • #3
      well in the interests of the Irish Defence Force we need something to defend our RRF overseas, also we need to defend our airspace and put troops overseas buy ourselves and resupply them.

      The Ranger wing are currently putting the Eagle under trails, Im not sure what the PDF prefer


      • #4
        Really now is it asking to much to let the lads have a nice shiny new aeroplane?don't they deserve it for all the hard work that they do?, and god knows michael o'leary isnt going to let them fly for free! Sure the next thing is you will be wanting things like troop carrying heli's , new recce vehicles the occasional piece of decent armour? all i can say is remember your afv recognition lessons, if its armour it sure as hell isnt ours!:D


        • #5
          Nothing says don't hit me up like a Leopard 2A4, I think on this board at least there is a consensus that infantry support MBTs are a must if we aspire to frontline peace enforcement roles.
          "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke


          • #6
            While a Leo2A4 (or A5, while we're dreaming) would be ideal, there would be nothing wrong with a lighter, 105mm armed, tank, like the Leo1.

            It'd be easier to deploy but still capable enough to take on anything up to a T-72 were the worst to come to the worst. Cheaper to run and support too. Thing is, they'd probably have to undergo some mechanical work, so it would be cheaper to just go for the Leo2 in the first place, specially since the 120mm ammo is more or less the standard across NATO now (apart from the Brits). Commonality and all that.

            Still, the odds of it happening are, well, minimal.


            • #7
              Leopard II's seem a bit too heavy for Ireland.
              My preference would be for the CV90120-T, it has a 120mm gun and fires the same ammo as the leopard II.
              It's a nice piece of kit and weighs in at about 25 -27 (metric) Tons.


              • #8
                OH LORD! We're beginning to sound like the Air Corps section :(
                I don't believe in love - just friendship + sex


                • #9
                  This is all pointless really. The army are definitely not getting MBT's (despite Leo2a4's being available s/h from the Bundeswehr for < EUR1m each :( ).

                  Remember also that light tactical vehicle procurement and Scorpion upgrades have both been delayed by funding restrictions, these would have to be dealt with first before anything else could be considered.


                  • #10
                    See your point Shrike, but Leo2s are being given away at the moment, and thats no exageration.

                    The Germans, Dutch and maybe the Swedish all have stocks of used Leo2s which they have no use for. The Germans have given a large number of theirs away (to Poland and Finland) for practically nothing.

                    The CV90120 has yet to be purchased by anyone, including Sweden (which has Leo2A5 and A6s or Strv121 and 122). So A: We'd have to pay for it, B: We'd be the launch customer (bad idea), C: Its not a tank, its probably best described as a tank destroyer, one of the most important aspects of its use for peace enforcement is the fact that its heavily armoured. The CV is only slightly better armoured than a PIII ...


                    • #11
                      Fair enough.
                      But the Leo 2's were designed for fighting a battle on the North german plain. A nation like Ireland doen't need a 55 Ton MBT.
                      Most of our solidier are deployed for peace keeping (and that will probably continue to be the case) where a MBT will be of limited value.
                      It would be a logistical nightmare to move a dozen leo2's from Ireland to lets say the congo.
                      Even the German's found that their equitment was too heavy in Kosovo, and are moving towards lighter kit like the Wiesel 2.


                      • #12
                        Shrike, like I was saying (and Yellowjacket) this really is fantasy. There isn't enough money to dieselise the CVRT (which would be very useful on deployment) so running MBTs is clearly out of the question.

                        The Germans loved having their Leos along in Kosovo (and Bosnia), true, they were a pain to deploy, but like C-Q was saying, they really do send a message ... Don't F$%k with us!


                        • #13

                          infantry need to train with air and armoured support, long with engineers and artillery to be effective in a comdined arms situation.


                          If you had a choice, would you like to be in a 55tonne leopard 2 or a 27 tonne vehicle like a Cv-90 if you got hit by a 115mm round. Know which one I'd choose. Tanks are designed to fight other tanks, and have the protection to survive.

                          there is a more realistic case for MBT then for fighter aircraft, in that there is already existing expertise, both practical and tactical, in operating tracked vehicles with the scorpions, which there isn't with fighters. They have come in useful on peace support operations, ask the Danes in Kosovo, and as Aidan suggested, Lepaard 1A5 or M-60A3 have 15 years left in them, more if their upgraded, look at how long the Centurion remains in service sutiable updated in South African and israeli service, whilst both the israelis and GDLS have excellent upgrade packages for the M-60, where the basic vehicles could be acquired free. MBT would provide a very useful training aid in the interim and modified could be used to give the defence forces a warfighting edge.

                          Look at the acquisition of the El-70/Flycatcher as an example, Ireland really has no tactical use for so many very short range aid defence weapons, we're unlikely to be attacked by a airforce that don't have precision guided munuitions, or who bother to do anything so old fashioned as fly over the target, but they fill a valuable training role, and has given relatively modern equipment to a corps that was relying on stuff left over from WW2.

                          A force of 32 M-60A3, 2 M-60 AVLB and 2 M-88 ARRV, about enough to equip 2 squadrons with 8 spare could be acquired for virtually free, (Egypt only paid shipping costs for theirs), they would provide a valuable training tool ( one squadron could be RDF), and could be sutiable modified/upgraded in 10 years time along the lines of the SABRA.
                          Last edited by paul g; 28 July 2003, 19:53.


                          • #14
                            infantry need to train with air and armoured support, long with engineers and artillery to be effective in a comdined arms situation.

                            Agreed.. but since we're dealing with a combined-nations force here, why not do combined-nations training? The Brits and French have plenty of tanks, I'm sure they'd let us send our ERRF troopies to the same training exercises as their tankies.

                            there is a more realistic case for MBT then for fighter aircraft, in that there is already existing expertise, both practical and tactical, in operating tracked vehicles with the scorpions, which there isn't with fighters.

                            n fairness, you get about as much expertese for modern MBTs like Leo 2 from the Scorpions as you do for F-16s from flying Fougas. Believe me, I've gone from AMLs to M1A1s.

                            Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!


                            • #15
                              Shrike, I'll see you your 120mm, and raise you a 125... :-)

                              Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!