Irish speaking unit in the RDF

[johnny no stars]

The school system is the problem. It teaches Irish the same way it teaches English, assuming you use it in everyday conversation, as dev wanted. I know I learnt more Irish in 6 months at Templemore that I did for all the years in secondary school.
It should be taught like a foreign language. i.e Conversational, rather than concentrating on obscure poetry and prose by odd people.

I couldn't agree more. Well I'd actually add a bit more on to the end of that statement.

In gaeltacht areas it should stay as it is. They should be expected to be able to do an irish language version of the english paper. In non gaeltacht areas higher level irish should be only slightly harder than higher level german, french, italian or spanish. Oh and before anyone starts on a rant about that being unfair on gaeltacht inhabitants... my neighbour is dutch and her daughter wanted to do dutch for the leaving cert. The dept of ed said ok, but the paper would be pitched at a native speaker's level and be a dutch version of the english paper.

So they've already taken the view that if it's your native language/you happen to be bilingual, then you have to do a harder exam then a LC HL German/French paper.

As it stands there is an unfair bias against people who aren't native speakers. Having 2 versions of the Leaving cert irish papers (at both higher and ordinary levels), one for native speakers and one for non native speakers, is the only way that it will not be unfairly biased for/against any group.

[Goldie fish]

The school system is the problem. It teaches Irish the same way it teaches English, assuming you use it in everyday conversation, as dev wanted. I know I learnt more Irish in 6 months at Templemore that I did for all the years in secondary school.
It should be taught like a foreign language. i.e Conversational, rather than concentrating on obscure poetry and prose by odd people.

[johnny no stars]

I actually see connaught stranger's point about the oath. Anything that needs to be clear to everyone (such as what number you are when sizing off, otherwise people might not have the foggiest notion if they're odd or even) should be done in the vernacular language. Jeez, even the catholic church copped on to that one!

As far as people not knowing how to count to 100 in Irish, why would they? We take non-nationals and there is no educational requirement for joining. That means no requirement for Irish to be known. People get exempt from Irish in school too for all sorts of reasons and if they have been exempt it usually means that even the dept. of education think it's too much to expect them to learn a foreign language for whatever reason! And btw, Irish is as foreign as French or German when it comes down to it because it's not your everyday language and you have to learn it from scratch.

For the record, I have no issues with Irish.

[Goldie fish]

Isn't there a government directive of some sort that insists all documents, training etc must also be available through Irish?

[Bosco]

Im with Elvis on this it doesnt take a huge amount of effort, I trained a young lad who had no Irish as in not was bad at it in school but I mean never learnt it at all and he copped on to the commands after a while. All that he got extra from any other recruit was a sheet with all the orders spelled out on it phonetically.

Trained recruits over last summer and all the instruction given was given in Irish. The recruits soon got up to speed.

[ELVIS]

Whatever happening to only being as strong as the weakest man? Unless everyone in front of you knows how to count up to the required number in Irish, do it in English.

So if not everyone in the section is fully up on section attack you shouldn't do it is the same mentality??

Its a part of the training and should be learned. It would literally take one nights learning to get off all the commands for foot drill if you sat down and learned them so whats the problem. There's loads of shit thats taught and learned during training that is worthless to fighting or whatever job you have but its still done. This shouldn't be any different just because a few lads couldn't be arsed learning a few phrases off.

And I agree that its pretty much useless to do it in Irish but whats wrong with a bit of tradition? If anything I think it makes the connection for a lot of people that they are serving Ireland instead of just another job. When there are things like passing out parades it makes it look snappier in Irish as the commands sound better in my opinion and gives a bit of prode when families are watching. Nothing wrong with that. If some foot drill is taught to Irish command then it all should be, no half way.

[Master Of None]

*Smacks head*

Hope that was you own noggin concussion, otherwise it's a bit A7

[concussion]

Numbering off and sizing into 2/3 ranks is about the only time when english is normally used as an order in foot drill, and that's for purposes of clarity.

Sure don't worry about it too much anyway, unless it's on the pages which are missing from my manual (pg 14 - 17) then sizing off by height isn't even in the drill manual.

People have enough trouble with the concept of "odd numbers one pace forward, even numbers one pace to the rear" in English, never mind if you attempted to do it in Irish.

"What number are you??!!
Uh....10...uh, 10 corporal.
So does that meake you odd or even????
Ummm...even?
Well there's something distinctly odd about you right now....two paces to the rear!!!"


*Smacks head*

[Barry]

Numbering off and sizing into 2/3 ranks is about the only time when english is normally used as an order in foot drill, and that's for purposes of clarity. People have enough trouble with the concept of "odd numbers one pace forward, even numbers one pace to the rear" in English, never mind if you attempted to do it in Irish.

[Viking]

Sorry, I wasn’t too clear in my last post. I didn't say that you should instruct in Irish, what I said is that drill should be taught properly, and if the commands and responses should be given in Irish, then they should be given in Irish. If you allow a mixture of English and Irish just because Irish requires troops to be a bit more switched on then you are setting a dangerous precedent. Regarding the drill manual, I understand that it was written in the period before the decision was taken to move to drill commands in Irish. The manual of arms drill, a more modern publication, makes it clear that drill will be carried out in Irish.

Conn Stranger, I see you point regarding the oath, but I don't see what it has to do with drill. Drill should be carried out in Irish.

[hptmurphy]

The drill manual is in Irish

Now try to teach it through Irish rather than just use the Irish Word of commnad and see how far you get with that...especially if you have people who have never had to learn Irish .

Bear in mind this has occured with non speakers in the DF and if the instructor feels proficent enough to teach it..he can do so.

There is no prequalification for the requirement to have Irish on entering the DF..so chances are very high that those you want to instruct maybe clueless in the language you choose to instruct in.

I'm not against the use of the language but in everyday use it should be optional rather than mandatory.

It has a nice touch as being the word of command but as far as getting the message across using it....don't think so.....

[Barry]

Nothing quite beats being asked what haon, do and tri mean by someone who will be doing their leaving certificate in the next few months.

[luchi]

Yes TD Barry is 100% correct.
If you give the command "from the right number" then they have been ordered to count in the language the order was given.
On the ither hand if given "On Dheis Comhraigh" the count should be as Gaeilge.

And if teaching foot drill orders are given as Gaeilge so the count must also be as Gaeilge. But for many the idea of "work on the haoin and pause on the do, tri! is unbelievably difficult.

[Truck Driver]

The tallest person will be on the right (it's how the sizing off works). Then the command "from the right, number" is given, so the tallest person is the one who starts, by saying "one". Except if said tall person is trying to be smart and says "haon", which leads to a cluster**** not long afterwards.

Edit: Oh, and you should all have a look at the foot drill manual. It's in Irish AND English.

Ah, yes. The whole "STOP! What language did I give the order in...?" scenario......

[Barry]

Err, Barry, I may be missing something, but WHY ?
Tallest on the right, shortest on the left, from the RIGHT - number .......

The tallest person will be on the right (it's how the sizing off works). Then the command "from the right, number" is given, so the tallest person is the one who starts, by saying "one". Except if said tall person is trying to be smart and says "haon", which leads to a cluster**** not long afterwards.

Edit: Oh, and you should all have a look at the foot drill manual. It's in Irish AND English.