Getting through the pNCO course

[hptmurphy]

Murph, easy for you to say that you've got 3rd stripe I cannot commit to integration for all the same reasons you couldn't. You're proposal would mean I would never see 3rd stripe then. Let's be honest you will retire a sgt same as me if I ever get there the way promtion is going

It wasn't that easy to say as I thought it would attract flak.

In my own case if I was back at the start again and wanted the stripes bad enough and that was the criteria , fair enough.

Thers a lot of thinning out in units before stripes become available and lack of qualification of the candidates is the only way its going to be done even handedly.

[bunny shooter]

...............Thers a lot of thinning out in units before stripes become available and lack of qualification of the candidates is the only way its going to be done even handedly.

as I said easy to say when you have 'em. I can't even get time to do std's course at this stage so should some inexperinced cpl who can be promoted above me? And they will wonder where all the experienced NCO's will be?

[Docman]

I'm going to throw this in as a 'wild card' and some will hate me for it...and to my own mind its wrong but ... it seems to be the only way.

Integration......

Use integration as a qualifier for POTs course and all courses there after i.e. you must have completed a period of integration prior to being even able to apply for a POTs course and there after have held the rank within the integration before qualifying for promotion....and this would seperate the men from the sheep!

Now your selection for course is based on how you perform away from the insulated cocoon of your unit and you have to be able to carry it off at a higher level than would be normally expected.

I'm surprised you said it BUT....

Given the hostility to Integration, high standards on the PNCOs cse and fitness tests in general, I reckon this option would cause a furore....even if it is a good option. It is bad enough the whinging & gnashing of teeth that is going on over fitness tests, but to introduce a requirement of Integration would cause forests of trees that would be cut down providing the paper required to write out all those protest letters. and don't forget the bandwidth!!! Billions of gigs taken up with non stop whining. I sooner perfer not to have a headache.

Given that, those who were integrated and underwent the PNCOs cse this year in S Bde actually flew through the course. Given that most had been given Section appointments during tactical training with the PDF in Integration, the PNCOs cse was like a holiday for them.

[hptmurphy]

Given that, those who were integrated and underwent the PNCOs cse this year in S Bde actually flew through the course. Given that most had been given Section appointments during tactical training with the PDF in Integration, the PNCOs cse was like a holiday for them

I thought they would, now that begs the question is the PNCO's course as a whole up to standard or would ity have to be re aligned with the PDF level of course should integration be a qualifier.?

I may tend at times to be a bit of an' integration basher' but I do see the merits behind it but the format its being run in is not how I had envisaged it to be and in from I've learned is below the level of what I expected .

My concept of integration would have required legislation for the reservist to take a non punitive leave of absence from his employer, do six months, spend a further few months training for overseas and then be deployed , come back tidy up any loose ends and return to unit


It fell at the firts fence.

Anyway apart from that I do reckon that integration can be used by the RDF to upskill beyond those who actually integrate by using it as an entry level for course POts , Standards and Officers, where by those who come back qualified willl have met the criteria and would be trained as a group with other units rather than different levels of training and practise which is still all to common in the RDF .

Given the hostility to Integration, high standards on the PNCOs cse and fitness tests in general, I reckon this option would cause a furore....even if it is a good option. It is bad enough the whinging & gnashing of teeth that is going on over fitness tests, but to introduce a requirement of Integration would cause forests of trees that would be cut down providing the paper required to write out all those protest letters. and don't forget the bandwidth!!! Billions of gigs taken up with non stop whining. I sooner perfer not to have a headache

.

Interesting reply as it would sem you like the concept but lack faith in the system to carry it off.....but didn't we have the same problems with integration and fitness in the first place/

And all though we may still be only in the early stage sof these programmes.. it has to be admittted that they are happening and to a certain degree working.

So it would seem through all the negativity ..anything is possible if even only a small minority are will to try it and it is supported from on high.

Back to your last point on the Pots course and how they sailed through it....would they now feel aggrieved at persons not having completed integration still having qualified with albeit a lower degree of training and even possibly a lower skills base.

Not trying to open a can of worms .. just thinking out loud given my initial suggestion.

[DeV]

Maybe the BTCs (or a designated unit with affiliated unit support) should run (or supervise the running of) a centralised Bde 2*-3* Cse that could help allivate the problem.

[riflemangundy]

The problem is being discussed at a high level. Several Senior PDF (and RDF) officers are concerned at the poor pass rate on PNCOs cses. This is leading to a shortage of NCOs in a lot of units.
Thankfully, many PDF & RDF officers blame the units for not sending appropriate or well prepared candidates. As a result, there will (hopefully) be no dilution of standards on courses. However there is also a movement pushing for courses to be made a lot easier. I have even heard of one senior RDF officer looking for people to be given stripes without a course in order to have enough NCOs in the unit. It is almost coming to the stage where units are allowing their units to fall apart rather than be forced to improve training standards and better prepare candidates.

As I said, currently there is no plans to dilute standards. Hopefully it will stay that way.

So What if you have 4 Excellent PteS who cant pass the ITs but are top notch at everything else (FROM class's to arms drill to Corps traing etc. and RELIABLE)and who have proved themselves when under pressure and holding acting appointments in ATC?

[Bravo20]

There is no such thing as can't pass the ITs, with the proper planning and preparation it is achievable. I am an overweight smoker and I passed grade with grade 3. It took me 6 painful months but I did it. In my coy this year we identified ITs as being the potential weak point and put in a support structure to help the candidates through this. One did at attempt no 3. Again proper planning, preparation and motivation on behalf of candidate and unit achieved this.

[Truck Driver]

What courses are the BTCs running as a matter of interest?

Career courses from Standard NCO course up is run at Army level., in the Military College

Pot NCO and MoI would be two that I can think of...

[concussion]

There were also supposed to be a Logs & Admin course and a number of ILWS and Sp weapon courses run also, don't know why they didn't go ahead.

[Hello Alaska]

So What if you have 4 Excellent PteS who cant pass the ITs but are top notch at everything else (FROM class's to arms drill to Corps traing etc. and RELIABLE)and who have proved themselves when under pressure and holding acting appointments in ATC?

If they can't pass their ITs they're no use to the RDF if it wants to be a capable Reserve.

[Steyr Fan]

My first post, so go easy on me pleeeeease.....

IT's - easily achievable by anyone with a basic level of fitness. Grade 4 is the min, and that is a doddle. If a soldier goes south on one aspect of the test, then the everall is grade 5 (fail). He / she has a number of weeks (12 I think) within which to re-do test by which time said individual should have recovered from whatever injury troubled them, or improved fitness if lack of was the problem, first time around.

Be under no illusion folks - the IT's are nothing to fear, and it is the way the RDF is going. And the sooner the better.

So as i said, go easy on me.

[hptmurphy]

So What if you have 4 Excellent PteS who cant pass the ITs but are top notch at everything else (FROM class's to arms drill to Corps traing etc. and RELIABLE)and who have proved themselves when under pressure and holding acting appointments in ATC?

back to basics..should we not then have ITs for those on enlistment to ensure they are physically fit to be in the RDF before they get to the level of having to fail them?

[Tribunius]

back to basics..should we not then have ITs for those on enlistment to ensure they are physically fit to be in the RDF before they get to the level of having to fail them?

Yes we should. In fact if we did I wouldn't be surprised if retention increased as it will weed out a lot of the half hearted ones from the start.

[Hello Alaska]

back to basics..should we not then have ITs for those on enlistment to ensure they are physically fit to be in the RDF before they get to the level of having to fail them?

Not on enlistment, however they should still be implemented before a person takes part in FTT.

People should have to do ITs before their first Recruit Camp. Given the time between when a person joins and their first camp, along with the new Reservist PTL's, Recruits should be taken on at least the 1 PT a week with the Unit as well as encouraged to train by themselves in that time. In the weeks leading up tp Recruit Camp, run ITs for the Recruits. If you can't pass the IT or the repeats then you're no use to the Reserve or the DF so away you go.

Something like that IMO would certainly cut out the wasters turning up just for the uniform, especially when kit isn't exactly thrown at the Reserve. It would also ensure that all Recruits going on the Camps have at least a basic level of fitness with which they can improve on. It would cut all the bags of shite that join and help transform the Reserve into an organisation that could focus on quality rather than quantity.

[DeV]

Not on enlistment, however they should still be implemented before a person takes part in FTT.

People should have to do ITs before their first Recruit Camp. Given the time between when a person joins and their first camp, along with the new Reservist PTL's, Recruits should be taken on at least the 1 PT a week with the Unit as well as encouraged to train by themselves in that time. In the weeks leading up tp Recruit Camp, run ITs for the Recruits. If you can't pass the IT or the repeats then you're no use to the Reserve or the DF so away you go.

Something like that IMO would certainly cut out the wasters turning up just for the uniform, especially when kit isn't exactly thrown at the Reserve. It would also ensure that all Recruits going on the Camps have at least a basic level of fitness with which they can improve on. It would cut all the bags of shite that join and help transform the Reserve into an organisation that could focus on quality rather than quantity.

Why spend all the effort recruiting, security clearance, audiogram, medical, swearing in, getting army number, issuing uniform to someone & then getting rid of them when they can't pass ITs.