Orderlies

[spanky]

Joshua, Bravo 20, troops I think your heads are in the clouds!,Ex-Soldier and Erwin hit the nail on the head, As things stand there are not enough hours allocated to lessons, so obviously these have to be made up after hours, as regards the appointments of orderlies, they are a necessity, recruits have to learn discipline, and believe me they will learn it if a task that it is appointed to them is not carried out to the instructors satisfaction. So what if there is not enough time in the day for them to get everything done during working hours, the day is but 24 hours long! and remember if they do pass out, and end up serving overseas at some stage, all they are entitiled to is 4 hours sleep!. as Ex-soldier so rightly put it, everything else is a privilige. If recuits dont like it, well Fergal Quinn is always looking for people.

[Bravo20]

Spanky you obviously didn't read my points very well. I was making the very big distinction between the position of a billet orderly, who is the responsible for the cleanliness of the room (and remember just because he is responsible for it doesn't mean he does it all, hence exercising a bit of leadership) and having to provide a number of recruits as camp staff such as cleaning latrines (for the 400 other people in the camp) and kitchen details. As this tends to be landed on the recruit platoon(s) it means that you are almost guaranteed to be missing 1/3 of your troops everyday for a week, and as you are usually only there for 6 days, the average recruit only gets 4 days training. Now tell me how that is beneficial. The old practice of having a seperate admin party to handle camp duties would alleviate that.

Ex-Soldier, you forgot one more important thing a soldier is entitled to and that is his space in the ranks.

[Erwin]

A Recruit would have plenty of space in the ranks once everyone has been ****ed off parade!!!So thats a non-starter.In reference to the fact that Recruits are doing work -details in the cookhouse on camp for the whole Unit,well that bolis down to one thing - spinelessness on the part of the Platoon Comd & the Platoon Sgt.Thats it in a nutshell!!All other points stand as far as i'm concerned & i know they work!!!Just for the record i did kitchen duties as a lowly recruit in the Army,woe betide if the cookhouse wasn't up to scratch after meals & woe betide you if you missed the parade which came immediately after meals - Morning/afetrnoon inspection.You got it in the neck either way!!!!:(
Just one other thing,two words that don't go together - Recruits & entitled - anyone who says anything else is lillyLivered!!You get all you are entitled to when you're a trained soldier - Bk Gd's,Stand to's,Christmas duties,the list is endless:D

[Western Commando]

Orderlies

My post wasn’t about whether FCA Recruits should be made work, it was about whether they should be under the direction of an NCO or another recruit picked at random from the Nominal Roll. I feel that comparisons on this matter between the PDF and RDF are misleading. The RDF recruit comes to camp with little more than some basic foot drill training at a few night parades, and because of the Orderly system is expected to take control of a group of people he doesn’t know and carry out a task he isn’t really sure of. If, instead of this, the Recruits carried out the task under the command of an NCO they would bond better, and instead of an Rec Orderly being blamed for any faults, the team as a whole would be responsible.
This lack of teamwork leads to resentment amongst the other recruits and in some cases victimization of the orderly. I feel that in the RDF recruit camp should, in addition to the syllabus, be about learning the ethos of the DF, in particular the team ethic, not about trying a to copy every method used in the PDF, which is vastly different force.

[FMolloy]

I have never come across any instances where a recruit was victimised by his peers as a result of being an orderly. Similarly, I have never seen a recruit orderly solely taking the blame for anything the group as a whole were responsible for.

Regardless of who is in charge, keeping the billet clean is a group activity. I fail to see how having a recruit orderly oversee the task would result in a lack of teamwork, or having an NCO do it would improve the team spirit.

[Joshua]

The time allocated to the training of recruits in the rdf is obviously vastly different to that in the pdf. Due to financial constraints the two week camp has given way to a one week camp.The two week programme is now condensed into that one week.

In many units including my own, the programme finishes at 1630 and no further training is to be given after that time.This is non negotiable.
Your flippant comment re after hours Spanky, is therefore not relevant.

Ex Soldier, ditto the above: we are talking about rdf recruits and not pdf recruits. We havent got the time to squander.

Erwin, spinelessness, lily livered! Generally in the df, people do as they are ordered. Objections if given are noted and dismissed.
Entitled, we agree to differ.(do you have a high turnover of recruits/are you on recruit training?)

It would appear that some people place an equal emphasis on training and matters mundane. I however do not.

regards etc

Western Commando, apologies for deviating!

[Bravo20]

Listen guys. Those of you who are talking about squandering time and having billet orderlies going on power trips have obviously never taken charge of a recruit platoon or section. In the 12 years plus that I have been in this organisation quite a number of recruits have gone through my hands. The billet orderly is essential...got it. Otherwise it would not be as widespread.

1)It allows for NCOs and Officers to assess the recruit's potential.
2) It provides the NCOs with a single point of contact/blame/responsibility.
3) It introduces a sense of responsibility and obligation within the recruits.
4) It instills teamwork as the jobs that have to be done cannot be done by one person in the time allotted, they require teamwork, and the billet orderly changes everyday so what goes around comes around.

As regards to Joshua's comment on the same emphasis on the mundane as with training. Yes, that is exactly what you have to do, if you are to be a leader worth anything. Especially at recruit training the emphasis MUST be on attention to detail and discipline. Discipline isn't just responding to a shouted order from the NCO on the square, discipline is being able to do your job (whatever you are tasked to do) as efficiently as possible in the time allotted. You know you have achieved discipline when you no longer need to be supervised.

Teaching recruits to look after their own space i.e. billet, means they will look after themselves and their equipment in the field. That is why you make them polish their shoes, iron their uniforms, shave, make their beds, sweep the floor and clean their latrine area. We would all like to spend our time doing the nice things however that is not how the army works. To be a good leader you need to instill the same enthusiasm in the troops under your command when they are doing a shit detail as when they are doing something they like doing.

[Joshua]

B 20, I agree with all of your points.

Regarding the mundane and to squandering; I thought that it was clear that my reference was to the kitchen end of things taking away valuable training time from recruits, and not to personal administration as per your post.

Duties should be performed by a dedicated team so as not to impact on training.

regards etc

[Bravo20]

Agree with you on Kitchen/fatigue duties thing. Bring back the camp staff.

[trellheim]

If anyone remembers when before Eurest in the Brugha on KP.


KP( kitchen parade) is a job - it has to be done. HQ Coy in most FCA Inf Bns doesn't have the staff to provide for the Line coys - but it still has to be done.


US Marines spend a week of their basic boot camp on M&M = KP or BFW at Parris Island.

Personally I took it as an opportunity to skive as much food as I could on camp for me and my mates. Your mileage may vary.


PS I like Erwin's comments.

[Erwin]

Well chaps it looks like we all agree in principle,which is good.But,Joshua to say that training methods between the PDF & RDF are vastly different is erroneous to start.Both forces focus on the sane ethos in training - teamwork,i should hope they do anyway!!Obviously due to budgetary & time constraints etc. levels of training will vary,shit this happens in the regular Army as a whole on occasion.As long as a Recruit training programme finishes at 16.30 each day, well you might as well just pack up & toddle off home.Why?Because my friends you are wasting valuable time otherwise.Time that can be spent on other areas training these people as well as class work.A lot of work can & should be done outside of normal programme hours - i.e. work details,work on kit,weapons inspections etc,do you see where i'm going?
For that matter i have an awful lot of time spent training troops both at induction & advanced level so i know what i'm talking about.
My point about spinelessness & lilly liveredness was that if you have a body of troops in training & they are being dragged from billy to jack for stupid jobs instead of training time,well then the buck stops with the Pln.Sgt & the Pln Comd.If they won't fight for the troops to be taken off these duties well, my friend they are what i said they are!!Anyhows no Sgt Major or Coy Comd or equivalent worth his salt would let this go on either,so these people too are accountable!!
Finally attention to detail is what its all about,even if it is mundane & silly,it shows the true character of a good instructor if he can remain enthusiastic through the shite lessons at all times:D
Sorry about the rant,just seemed to go on there!!!!!!:( Bottom line - does the orderly system work? YES it does!!!!!!!!!!!!