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RDF - TA - NG: Overseas Capability

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  • RDF - TA - NG: Overseas Capability

    If you take the legal/job aspects out of this debate and talk just on the soldiering aspect the answer is yes. Why? Because if member of the National Guard and TA can do it - then so can members of the RDF.
    Joshua
    Searcher :)
    Last edited by Joshua; 4 November 2008, 14:36. Reason: moved from RDF Overseas
    There may be only one time in your life when your country will call upon you and you will be the only one who can do the nasty job that has to be done -- do it or forever after there will be the taste of ashes in your mouth.

  • #2
    Originally posted by ARNGScout View Post
    If you take the legal/job aspects out of this debate and talk just on the soldiering aspect the answer is yes. Why? Because if member of the National Guard and TA can do it - then so can members of the RDF.
    Big difference between the RDF and the NG/TA

    Then again, big difference in the missions each is required to do.

    Comment


    • #3
      Big difference between the RDF and the NG/TA
      I'm not sure I agree. There are some Guard units that are high speed but many are average before they do their pre-deployment training and get the job done. I'd expect the same outcome with the RDF. I think you're giving way too much credit to the Guard/TA as a whole.
      There may be only one time in your life when your country will call upon you and you will be the only one who can do the nasty job that has to be done -- do it or forever after there will be the taste of ashes in your mouth.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by ARNGScout View Post
        I think you're giving way too much credit to the Guard/TA as a whole.
        I've seen the NG, TA & RDF in action - I think you are giving too much credit to the RDF.

        Comment


        • #5
          Yes but you've see the NG/TA after their pre-deployment train-up which is usually about 3 straight months of just living army. Don't you think that the RDF would be up to the same standard if they got three months of continuous training?
          There may be only one time in your life when your country will call upon you and you will be the only one who can do the nasty job that has to be done -- do it or forever after there will be the taste of ashes in your mouth.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by kermit
            Texel / Spean Bridge or your friend's wedding is not seeing the RDF/TA/NG in action.
            I have plenty more experience, obviously far more than you. Don't assume that everyones experience is the same as yours....

            And it wasn't after a train-up for deployment. Ok, it was after a course so similiar.... but when was the last time you were near an RDF camp- it would be an eye-opener. As I said, I think you are giving too much credit to the RDF.

            Comment


            • #7
              Docman,

              as I served in the FCA for almost 11 years ('B' Coy 7th Bn) I got to see the type of quality available (some good some bad) and having spend 14 years in the Guard (the last 4 as a Scout and Infantry school instructor) I think I have enough exposure and experience to comment on this.

              I'm curious as to the course you were on and what type of Guard units you met. I also think that people underestimate the tranformation that can come about when someone is immersed in pre-deployment training.
              Joshua
              Searcher :)
              Last edited by Joshua; 31 October 2008, 12:56.
              There may be only one time in your life when your country will call upon you and you will be the only one who can do the nasty job that has to be done -- do it or forever after there will be the taste of ashes in your mouth.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ARNGScout View Post
                as I served in the FCA for almost 11 years ('B' Coy 7th Bn) I got to see the type of quality available (some good some bad) and having spend 14 years in the Guard (the last 4 as a Scout and Infantry school instructor) I think I have enough exposure and experience to comment on this.
                Your experience with the RDF was 14 years ago. It is a very different beast nowadays. You would probably be shocked with how bad things have got with the majority of units.
                Many RDF personnel cannot be trusted with a rifle. The RDF assessments a few weeks ago were a major eye-opener. I personally witnessed 3 NDs over the weekend. I also observed zero corrective action being taken against those people. I personally stay away from the ranges as much as possible nowadays, mainly because I soon expect someone to be killed on an RDF range and I don't want it to be me.
                Docman
                Closed Account
                Last edited by Docman; 31 October 2008, 20:13.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Docman View Post
                  Your experience with the RDF was 14 years ago. It is a very different beast nowadays. You would probably be shocked with how bad things have got with the majority of units.
                  Many RDF personnel cannot be trusted with a rifle. The RDF assessments a few weeks ago were a major eye-opener. I personally witnessed 3 NDs over the weekend. I also observed zero corrective action being taken against those people. I personally stay away from the ranges as much as possible nowadays, mainly because I soon expect someone to be killed on an RDF range and I don't want it to be me.
                  I have had some exposure to the TA and in my experience and cross referenced with the experience of some former members of the FCA who joined HM forces they aren't a million miles from us in the day to day.
                  Certainly there were huge concerns about some of the people coming out of optag training a few years go, although I suspect that. To a degree the pressure of real world operations has seperated the wheat from the chaff and a lot of the fat goldbricks that we know and love would be included amongst the oft publicised exodus from the TA.

                  There has been without a doubt a degeneration of core skills in the reserve, but a lot of these skills were never practiced in the correct context. And that part at least is a matter of ethos.
                  That is something that bright spark dessie boot wearing up and coming leaders can start to change.
                  If the reserve is to become feasible in any operational role, the old hobby ethos needs to go. The simple idea that people can get a sense of outrage over not being able to treat their time in training as a bit of fun never ceases to confound me.

                  Clearly there is a need to push out a lot of the old school, and even losing some of their benefits of experience may be a neccessary evil.

                  If Reservists are to serve overseas out of neccessity then there can be no room for the old ethos. At the end of the day, regardless of the intensity of the conflict or the security situation in any AO. By the nature of soldiering lives will be at stake.

                  I would see a fundamental awareness of this reality as being the primary difference between ourselves and the TA.

                  In the rush to be politically correct and sensitive and not to chase people out we have often overlooked some of these core aspects of ethos.
                  Pride in uniform, is pride in self after all.

                  Really what it comes down to for the RDF is junior leaders, up to YOs.

                  We need to start putting time and effort into our JNCOs in particular, they are the ones who will form the recruits view of the organisation, they are the ones that will oversee the military socialisation of the troops, the internalisation of discipline and they will instill the pride in self and uniform that is the basis of our sense of duty.

                  If there is any one area in the RDF that should be focused on it is this. There is no point in putting blokes through pre-deployment training to bring them up to standard if they are not psychologically prepared to be soldiers.

                  We need to better educate, train and support our junior leaders. Dismantle the webs of mysticism over how things are actually done and stop running the organisation as if anyone under the age of twenty five is a child.

                  Within the career lifecycle of the reservist, it would only take 2-4 years of concentrated, bloodyminded and unflinching effort to make this shift in ethos.

                  And then we can start talking about sending blokes overeseas.
                  "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I have plenty more experience, obviously far more than you. Don't assume that everyones experience is the same as yours....
                    Docman, would you mind telling us more of your experiences of foreign reserve forces and the comparison between us and them.
                    "Why, it appears that we appointed all of our worst generals to command the armies and we appointed all of our best generals to edit the newspapers. I mean, I found by reading a newspaper that these editor generals saw all of the defects plainly from the start but didn't tell me until it was too late. I'm willing to yield my place to these best generals and I'll do my best for the cause by editing a newspaper"
                    Gen. Robert E. Lee

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Viking View Post
                      Docman, would you mind telling us more of your experiences of foreign reserve forces and the comparison between us and them.
                      Yes I would.

                      And the main difference is attitude. Then again, attitude reflects leadership.
                      They show up to train and take it seriously. Discipline is a LOT tighter and all accept that and understand why. There are nights out etc. but these are usually outside of training and usually relaxation after a tough camp, not a major part of it.
                      Docman
                      Closed Account
                      Last edited by Docman; 3 November 2008, 19:44.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I did a communications course in the University of Durham, about 10 years ago.

                        In my class there were members of the British Air Force, Army and TA.

                        In the evening we had a few pints together and I found the attitude of the full time soldiers toward the TA with regard to skill level etc to be little different to that of the PDF towards the then FCA.

                        The TA lads had all the same gripes that the FCA had. I really can't see how that would have changed dramatically in the interveining period.

                        Could this be a case of the grass is greener on the other side?
                        Without supplies no army is brave.

                        —Frederick the Great,

                        Instructions to his Generals, 1747

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by luchi View Post
                          Could this be a case of the grass is greener on the other side?
                          Or a case of "The grass on the other side is getting deployed to Afghanistan and has had to raise their standards accordingly"

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Barry View Post
                            Or a case of "The grass on the other side is getting deployed to Afghanistan and has had to raise their standards accordingly"
                            But the TA is not the BA reserve. It is a part-time army. It is there to be used as required for home defence or assault on another soverign terratotiry.
                            Also if the TA wasn't there the MoD could just conscript to get required numbers.

                            The RDF is the reserve of the Irish Defence force. Not a part-time army. There is no mandate to do anything other than assist the Defence forces in time of need to Defend this state.

                            If you want to go to Afganistan, Iraq or other trouble spot then join the BA or one of the "Security" companies operating out there.
                            Without supplies no army is brave.

                            —Frederick the Great,

                            Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by luchi View Post
                              But the TA is not the BA reserve. It is a part-time army. It is there to be used as required for home defence or assault on another soverign terratotiry.
                              Also if the TA wasn't there the MoD could just conscript to get required numbers.
                              It is now the "reserve of first choice"

                              The RDF is the reserve of the Irish Defence force. Not a part-time army. There is no mandate to do anything other than assist the Defence forces in time of need to Defend this state.
                              Yes and no, according to Revenue we are a part-time army, according to the DOD we are a voluntary reserve for the DF (primarily to defend the State, but with a number of other roles).

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