Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Representative Associations / Unions

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Representative Associations / Unions

    Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
    RDFRA would have to be recognised as a trade union as opposed to a representitive association.

    This would cause major problems as under trade union rules you can only be a member of of one union at any time.

    So if RDFRA was recognised as a union it would be at odds with some members civvy employment.

    Not that its going to happen.
    It would also give members of the DF the right to industrial action -> not & IMHO shouldn't happen. Whatever the rights & wrongs of the Government, they are democratically elected. And we are sworn to defend the Constitution of which the Government is part.
    Last edited by DeV; 21 December 2008, 14:32.

  • #2
    originally posted by luchi
    "ICTU does not approve of representative associations in general but recognises the need for DF personnel to have a voice."

    Whats your source for the above statement?

    Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
    This would cause major problems as under trade union rules you can only be a member of of one union at any time.

    So if RDFRA was recognised as a union it would be at odds with some members civvy employment.

    Not that its going to happen.
    What's your basis for this there is no issue with eing in more than one union so long as they are in different employments.
    Last edited by johnny no stars; 22 December 2008, 21:12.
    OK Smith it’s Colonel Decker. I hate it when a plan comes together. You’re surrounded. I want you and Peck and Baracus, to throw out your weapons, all the ration packs you stole and come out with your hands up. You have fifteen seconds.

    Comment


    • #3
      My basis was a case I came across while I was employed as an Airport firefighter.By Classification of employment I was a member of union 'x' but given this was the recognised unionby the employer it had no standing ', I had no option but to be a memeber of union 'b'.

      Trade union 'a' wouldnt accept me as a member once I was a member of 'b'.You had to be officially released by one union before being able to join another.

      I could see the same scenario arising if RDFRA was to be recognised as a union given that the RDF and PDFORRA operate often outside trade union agreemants by the nature of the employment.

      There could be a conflict of interests so there fore I don't see RDFRA being accepted as a trade union given that there could be conflict between how things are dealt with in a military envoirnment.
      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

      Comment


      • #4
        You are wrong the ICTU rules you are familiar with are to do with the one employment and are there for that reason you could be working in two employments and in t.o different unions with no ictu issues,
        OK Smith it’s Colonel Decker. I hate it when a plan comes together. You’re surrounded. I want you and Peck and Baracus, to throw out your weapons, all the ration packs you stole and come out with your hands up. You have fifteen seconds.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by colonel decker View Post
          Whats your source for the above statement?
          Look up previous articles in news papers. ICTU is on record wuith its non-approval of
          The pilots association
          PDFORRA
          RDFRA
          and the association that represents the banking workers ( I can't remember its name)

          According to ICTU these bodies should be "proper unions" and affiliated to ICTU.

          My first source of reference is a friend of mine who is a SIPTU shop steward but if you would like to search Irish Times and Independent archives you will find a number of supporting articles.

          The point to note though is that ICTU recognises the need for representation.
          Without supplies no army is brave.

          —Frederick the Great,

          Instructions to his Generals, 1747

          Comment


          • #6
            I just had a discussion about being in 2 unions with another union rep. INTO this time.
            According to her
            1. you can only be represented in any employment by one union. All unions have ther right to represent their members to their employers. Thus if you are in two unions both would have the right to represent you in ALL or ANY employment you are in. Thus being in two unions is not acceptable.
            2. Your union also represents you at congress and once again you can only be represented once. Thus being in two unions is not acceptable.
            3. There are cases however were members of one union may affiliate to another in order to ensure representation. This is noted in the building trade were a site shop steward may be appointed to represent all trades even though there may be people from a number of unions. In this case the union representing the majority will take the lead but wil represent on behalf of the other unions. This does not deminish the right of the other unions
            Without supplies no army is brave.

            —Frederick the Great,

            Instructions to his Generals, 1747

            Comment


            • #7
              As far as Im aware Pdforra Raco & Rdfra all have loose informal contacts with ICTU and Im certain no trade union would have difficulty with rdfra rep of their members.
              RDFRA's problem is that they and the RDF has very little power to influence DOD or MA thinking on policy matters.
              We cant go on strike if we all stopped showing up for parades who would care.
              The public in general dont care about RDF and our ability to gather public support would be limited.
              Basically DOD & MA know they can treat RDF poorly and get away with it.
              In fairness If the Minister decided to disband RDF tomorrow as a cost cutting measure how much public reaction would there be?.....

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by luchi View Post
                Look up previous articles in news papers. ICTU is on record wuith its non-approval of
                The pilots association
                PDFORRA
                RDFRA
                and the association that represents the banking workers ( I can't remember its name)

                According to ICTU these bodies should be "proper unions" and affiliated to ICTU.

                My first source of reference is a friend of mine who is a SIPTU shop steward but if you would like to search Irish Times and Independent archives you will find a number of supporting articles.

                The point to note though is that ICTU recognises the need for representation.
                You should check your facts the plots association IALPA are a branch of IMPACT Trade Union good standing members of the ICTU.

                The Bank Officials are members of ICTU throught their proud union the IBOA.
                OK Smith it’s Colonel Decker. I hate it when a plan comes together. You’re surrounded. I want you and Peck and Baracus, to throw out your weapons, all the ration packs you stole and come out with your hands up. You have fifteen seconds.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by luchi View Post
                  I just had a discussion about being in 2 unions with another union rep. INTO this time.
                  According to her
                  1. you can only be represented in any employment by one union. All unions have ther right to represent their members to their employers. Thus if you are in two unions both would have the right to represent you in ALL or ANY employment you are in. Thus being in two unions is not acceptable.
                  2. Your union also represents you at congress and once again you can only be represented once. Thus being in two unions is not acceptable.
                  3. There are cases however were members of one union may affiliate to another in order to ensure representation. This is noted in the building trade were a site shop steward may be appointed to represent all trades even though there may be people from a number of unions. In this case the union representing the majority will take the lead but wil represent on behalf of the other unions. This does not deminish the right of the other unions
                  If you work in two differnt workplaces (unrelated) and there are different unions there you can be in the union in both. If there are different unions in the one work place then things get complicated.
                  OK Smith it’s Colonel Decker. I hate it when a plan comes together. You’re surrounded. I want you and Peck and Baracus, to throw out your weapons, all the ration packs you stole and come out with your hands up. You have fifteen seconds.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    You are wrong the ICTU rules you are familiar with are to do with the one employment and are there for that reason you could be working in two employments and in t.o different unions with no ictu issues
                    Now we are getting into sticky ground as some trades backround or technical grade personel in the RDF maybe doing the same job in civvy street with the RDFRA as representation while in the RDF.

                    The loose agree or recognition by ICTU could there cause a person to be in tow unions while doing the same job albeit for different employers.

                    Luchi has posted the facts regarding to what I be remember from days past. I think its a very valid point an something to be considered on two grounds..if the DF want Techie reserevists they are getting thew FOC which could be at odds with the principles of the representataive organisation of the employee/reservist.

                    Dangerous ground.
                    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      We know ! read back, it went back to what if 'hypothectically 'if the repersentative associations were granted union type status.
                      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by colonel decker View Post
                        You should check your facts the plots association IALPA are a branch of IMPACT Trade Union good standing members of the ICTU.
                        I alpa was set up as a professional body like the IEI and other such bodies nad not a trade union and so there is a lot more to it than just industrial relations.
                        And yes I did not check facts because quite simply I was told by a SIPTU rep that that is the way it is. There are supposidly other representive organisations in the same boat.

                        You ave not disputed the fact that the union you are in has the right to represent you to your employer.
                        If you are in two unions BOTH have the right to represent you.
                        If union A is in work place X and union B in work place Y. Then by you being in both gives the union A to represent you in work place Y and union B to represent you in work place X. This is not permitted which means that you must request the union not to represent you, which is something you cannot do or Fail to inform the union of your other employment and union status which you are required to do.

                        I must statt that I am quoting an INTO rep. I really don't have a clue as I am not a union member.

                        And kermit this is really a what if. The facts are that RDFRA must work with in the bounds of army regulation and DF legislation and so cannot be a union in that sence of the word.

                        According to the NORAD Santa tracker Santa has passed Dublin. So I have put out the Santa pressies for the kids and all I really wanted to do here was wish all at IMO a happy Christmas and good tidings in the New Year.
                        Without supplies no army is brave.

                        —Frederick the Great,

                        Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          From the IALPA website:

                          In the early 1960s IALPA was registered as a trade union. IALPA is currently attached to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and IMPACT. IMPACT deal with all Industrial Relations matters for IALPA.

                          IALPA is the voice of Professional pilots in Ireland and is expert on matters relating to the Air transport Industry such as:

                          1. The setting up of a body of expertise to advise any other agency, on matters relating to air transport.
                          2. The improving of legislation affecting the industry, particularly that involving the professional pilot.
                          3. The provision of an adequate lifestyle for members.
                          4. The handling of Association funds.
                          5. The provision of information and opportunities for the improvement of professional knowledge and skills.
                          6. The maintenance of professional standards.
                          7. The protection and welfare of members. Any person who holds a current Commercial Pilot’s Licence may become a member.
                          8. As the Association’s title implies, IALPA currently draws its membership from all airlines in Ireland - Aer Lingus, Aer Arann, Ryanair, CHC, City Jet and Irish Helicopters Ltd and also has independent members.

                          http://ialpa.net/history.html
                          Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
                          Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
                          Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
                          Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            As you say yourself you son't have a clue I already told you IALPA are now are part of IMPACT. I know quite a bit about Industrial Relations as I work in that area. There are no eules as suggested by you in workplace x and union b. At least Santa arrived.
                            OK Smith it’s Colonel Decker. I hate it when a plan comes together. You’re surrounded. I want you and Peck and Baracus, to throw out your weapons, all the ration packs you stole and come out with your hands up. You have fifteen seconds.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The facts are that RDFRA must work with in the bounds of army regulation and DF legislation and so cannot be a union in that sence of the word
                              Corect, but would they have more bargaining power should the be affiliated to the Tu movement although I can't see the DOD authourising that.
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X