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  • See page 12 for the key issues the WP will address:
    http://www.defence.ie/WebSite.nsf/grnPaperE

    We all know that one way of retaining/acquiring capability at a time when financial resources are strained could be utilisation of the RDF.

    However, there is more about the Civil Defence in the Green Paper than the RDF.

    Comment


    • I spoke with another former colleague this morning who said the camp spent with the parent unit was very good, with four courses run in the recent past that went up on the system, problem being that five recruits do not save a unit from extinction.

      The PDF are not the problem at unit level, their hands are tied.

      I do know that 1 Cav in Cork are being crucified as they are the smaller unit in that location and have most of their strenght tied up in Battle group or overseas and the reservists are a welcome relief for guys being creased for duties.

      If that is the intention for the future employment of the RDF, declare it be so and not raise the expectations of people. Pay them accordingly for these duties and release the PDF guys to further their careers.

      If I was a reservist again and someone suggested my commitment was to be 2 duties per month with pay, would I object, No ! if that was my declared role within the DF for the foreseeable future.

      There are people who are quite willing to offer this with the proper terms and conditions attached.
      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

      Comment


      • Bang on the head Murph. If I was told that's what I'd be at, with courses available also, and there were the appropriate legislations/whatever in place, then I'd be the first to sign up for duties.
        I knew a simple soldier boy.....
        Who grinned at life in empty joy,
        Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
        And whistled early with the lark.

        In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
        With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
        He put a bullet through his brain.
        And no one spoke of him again.

        You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
        Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
        Sneak home and pray you'll never know
        The hell where youth and laughter go.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
          I spoke with another former colleague this morning who said the camp spent with the parent unit was very good, with four courses run in the recent past that went up on the system, problem being that five recruits do not save a unit from extinction.

          The PDF are not the problem at unit level, their hands are tied.

          I do know that 1 Cav in Cork are being crucified as they are the smaller unit in that location and have most of their strenght tied up in Battle group or overseas and the reservists are a welcome relief for guys being creased for duties.

          If that is the intention for the future employment of the RDF, declare it be so and not raise the expectations of people. Pay them accordingly for these duties and release the PDF guys to further their careers.

          If I was a reservist again and someone suggested my commitment was to be 2 duties per month with pay, would I object, No ! if that was my declared role within the DF for the foreseeable future.

          There are people who are quite willing to offer this with the proper terms and conditions attached.
          In fairness, not sure if that is a relatively unique situation in Collins due to EUBG

          Having said that each unit does their stint as Bde Stand Too, Portlaoise etc
          Last edited by DeV; 1 October 2014, 12:57.

          Comment


          • So, if I've got it right the situation is as follows:
            Tthere is no apparent plan for the RDF combined with a decrease in numbers and pay. In some posts they are found to be useful to fill a gap but in others, they sit around.
            Nobody can tell a recruit what training he is likely to receive and what, if anything, he will ever be required to do with it.
            Civvie pay is better, taking time off for the RDF is increasingly a cost to be borne.

            To me that sounds like the future of the RDF is continued decline through lack of interest until you can't even find the bodies to do duties where they are required and it becomes a notion, like the first line reserve was.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by expat01 View Post
              So, if I've got it right the situation is as follows:
              Tthere is no apparent plan for the RDF combined with a decrease in numbers and pay. In some posts they are found to be useful to fill a gap but in others, they sit around.
              Nobody can tell a recruit what training he is likely to receive and what, if anything, he will ever be required to do with it.
              Civvie pay is better, taking time off for the RDF is increasingly a cost to be borne.

              To me that sounds like the future of the RDF is continued decline through lack of interest until you can't even find the bodies to do duties where they are required and it becomes a notion, like the first line reserve was.
              Hit the nail on the head there expat01
              What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by expat01 View Post
                So, if I've got it right the situation is as follows:
                Tthere is no apparent plan for the RDF combined with a decrease in numbers and pay. In some posts they are found to be useful to fill a gap but in others, they sit around.
                Nobody can tell a recruit what training he is likely to receive and what, if anything, he will ever be required to do with it.
                Civvie pay is better, taking time off for the RDF is increasingly a cost to be borne.

                To me that sounds like the future of the RDF is continued decline through lack of interest until you can't even find the bodies to do duties where they are required and it becomes a notion, like the first line reserve was.
                Actually recruits and Pte 2*s should be a good position as they know exactly what training they will do, ie recruit and 3* training, it is after that there can be issues.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                  In fairness, not sure if that is a relatively unique situation in Collins due to EUBG

                  Having said that each unit does their stint as Bde Stand Too, Portlaoise etc
                  I'm only quoting that which I know of, I don't have insight to any other location.
                  Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                    Actually recruits and Pte 2*s should be a good position as they know exactly what training they will do, ie recruit and 3* training, it is after that there can be issues.

                    Fair enough, to a degree. In my time they tended to drop off after 3* camp. The problem will be when you can't retain your NCOs or sufficient 3*s to find new ones.
                    I think the cost/benefit thing is going to start biting hard there, making running some units difficult. The cost-benefit thing will also start to have an effect on recruitment as word gets around. If I were 18 again, I'd not bother. Then again I joined at 17*
                    That's my fear, hope to be wrong.
                    But if all they really want is a sort of cadet corps setup to encourage recruitment to the PDF (not that you need the reserves to serve that function unless unemployment drops to negligible levels) while having ten or twelve bodies for the odd barracks duty, then carry on.
                    Do they know what they want?

                    *-ish.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                      Actually recruits and Pte 2*s should be a good position as they know exactly what training they will do, ie recruit and 3* training, it is after that there can be issues.
                      The chances are that very few will progress beyond 3* training away as it is around this time the lifestyle changes and moves come into place , college etc. But as I've always said if these things were always going to be a problem we were looking at the wrong end of the spectrum for recruits and retention was going to be a contributory factor in any demise.

                      I firmly believe with legislation and targeted recruitment and a rentetion package there was a point between 1999 and 2005 where the reserve was a very viable option and aligning units with parent units in the current format would have created a point where the reserve would have been a credible alternative military career for some and supported the PDF without having the yo yo effcet in army numbers when recruitment was frozen.

                      Missed oppertunity.
                      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                      Comment


                      • Here I live in a country that can't find its collective arse with an atlas. The state of the SANDF is decried by most previous and not a few serving members. And the reserve is considered vital.
                        "The role of the Reserves is confirmed as the following:
                        To augment the Regulars in ongoing operations and activities of the Defence Force.
                        To form part of both the standing and surge military force design.
                        To provide the expansion capability of the Defence Force for major combat operations and crisis response.
                        To provide certain specialist and scarce skills to the Defence Force.
                        To provide the main specialist capabilities for reconstruction and development .
                        To enhance the relationship between Defence and the Public and Private sectors."

                        Reserve members sign a contract committing to specific number of days per year, depending on their role. SANDF pay scales apply, with a "reserve force bonus" paid if a minumum of 12 days annual service is undertaken in a year.
                        Interestingly, the contract is expected to be worked out between the SANDF , the reservist AND the employer, although there is no legislation requiring employers to give time off.

                        I found their magazine interesting: http://www.rfdiv.mil.za/pdfs/publica...ter%202014.pdf
                        Last edited by expat01; 1 October 2014, 14:15.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                          The chances are that very few will progress beyond 3* training away as it is around this time the lifestyle changes and moves come into place , college etc. But as I've always said if these things were always going to be a problem we were looking at the wrong end of the spectrum for recruits and retention was going to be a contributory factor in any demise.

                          I firmly believe with legislation and targeted recruitment and a rentetion package there was a point between 1999 and 2005 where the reserve was a very viable option and aligning units with parent units in the current format would have created a point where the reserve would have been a credible alternative military career for some and supported the PDF without having the yo yo effcet in army numbers when recruitment was frozen.

                          Missed oppertunity.
                          Was always the case

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Rhodes View Post
                            What you on about? Overseas?

                            Not strictly overseas, but yes, where practical, inclusive of overseas service. Domestically, there's a shortage of doctors to conduct medicals. Appropriate RDF recruitment and retention measures could resolve that issue. There's a raft of engineers and specialists in the RDF that could with the appropriate supports be mobilised for 6-12 months on attachments to units to either instruct / assist / and develop unit capabilities. The sky is the limit as long as there's proper support in place.

                            Come April there will be a few hundred soldiers on the dole queue because they cant get overseas in order to fulfil their contract obligations, there is absolutely no shortage of willing troops wanting to go overseas and each trip could be filled ten times over.
                            For starters there's meant to ten times the amount of soldiers necessary to perform operations in order to maintain 5 year operational cycles consisting of 6 month tours. No biggy there.

                            But let me be the pro-Reserve Devil's advocate again. The DF can commit up to 850 troops overseas at any one time, but we're probably deploying about half that. Which straight away suggests that around 50% of the PDF establishment isn't involved in any operational cycle. I think I'm right in thinking that all the little liaison jobs around the globe are included in that 850 deployed number. Of the more lively operations, Mali, ISAF, UNDOF, UNIFIL etc; they're a hairy contact away from being pulled, UNDOF certainly. If any body bags came home, so would the mission. There's no public appetite and too much political cowardice to deploy troops anywhere, particularly anywhere with terrorism or Ebola on the periphery; and that's even if China or Russia let you out to play soldiers and hope to make a difference (Big Whoop for that Triple Lock!!).
                            So going back the Joe Duffy level, we have an army, ahem, defence force that has half it's strength committed to publicly unwanted missions and liaison jollies around the globe and the other half scratching their arses waiting for something to happen; all the while complaining they're not being paid enough and have to sleep in their cars.

                            Meanwhile, there's "pay as you go" military solution in the RDF that is woefully under-resourced for the sake of political convenience if little else but has the potential, based on international experience to provide highly skilled soldiers for a tiny fraction of the holding cost of their PDF counterparts.

                            Now usually at some point, someone in a decision making capacity is going to have a light bulb moment and the obvious should happen. However this being Ireland, it probably won't. Which is probably just as well.

                            The RDF use barracks, the facilities, accommodation, it stores their equipment but you think they shouldn't contribute to the manning and security of them. Barracks don't run themselves, it takes manpower.
                            Exactly, and there's around 4000 spare bodies outside of any operational cycle who should be more than capable of stagging on their own gates. If you want more bang from your buck when paying Reservists, you're better off training them when you have them. The Single Force isn't that stretched yet.

                            Originally posted by trellheim View Post
                            1. PDF do NOT set the RDF's role. That is done above the DFs head. Now they have input sure but they don't make the decision.
                            Which is why I'm waiting on the White Paper. At unit level, Regular/Reserve work well together, but the supports and retention measures just aren't there to make it viable long term. There needs to be serious policy change for the RDF for it to survive, and soon.

                            Originally posted by F_M View Post
                            Ya! Anyone know what the story with those wankers is?
                            They haven't gone away, you know.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by expat01 View Post
                              Here I live in a country that can't find its collective arse with an atlas. The state of the SANDF is decried by most previous and not a few serving members. And the reserve is considered vital.
                              "The role of the Reserves is confirmed as the following:
                              To augment the Regulars in ongoing operations and activities of the Defence Force.
                              To form part of both the standing and surge military force design.
                              To provide the expansion capability of the Defence Force for major combat operations and crisis response.
                              To provide certain specialist and scarce skills to the Defence Force.
                              To provide the main specialist capabilities for reconstruction and development .
                              To enhance the relationship between Defence and the Public and Private sectors."

                              Reserve members sign a contract committing to specific number of days per year, depending on their role. SANDF pay scales apply, with a "reserve force bonus" paid if a minumum of 12 days annual service is undertaken in a year.
                              Interestingly, the contract is expected to be worked out between the SANDF , the reservist AND the employer, although there is no legislation requiring employers to give time off.

                              I found their magazine interesting: http://www.rfdiv.mil.za/pdfs/publica...ter%202014.pdf
                              For a national mentality such as this you have to have spent the last 50 years at war with your neighbours, we will never get to anywhere like this.
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by SwiftandSure View Post
                                Not strictly overseas, but yes, where practical, inclusive of overseas service. Domestically, there's a shortage of doctors to conduct medicals. Appropriate RDF recruitment and retention measures could resolve that issue. There's a raft of engineers and specialists in the RDF that could with the appropriate supports be mobilised for 6-12 months on attachments to units to either instruct / assist / and develop unit capabilities. The sky is the limit as long as there's proper support in place.



                                For starters there's meant to ten times the amount of soldiers necessary to perform operations in order to maintain 5 year operational cycles consisting of 6 month tours. No biggy there.

                                But let me be the pro-Reserve Devil's advocate again. The DF can commit up to 850 troops overseas at any one time, but we're probably deploying about half that. Which straight away suggests that around 50% of the PDF establishment isn't involved in any operational cycle. I think I'm right in thinking that all the little liaison jobs around the globe are included in that 850 deployed number. Of the more lively operations, Mali, ISAF, UNDOF, UNIFIL etc; they're a hairy contact away from being pulled, UNDOF certainly. If any body bags came home, so would the mission. There's no public appetite and too much political cowardice to deploy troops anywhere, particularly anywhere with terrorism or Ebola on the periphery; and that's even if China or Russia let you out to play soldiers and hope to make a difference (Big Whoop for that Triple Lock!!).
                                So going back the Joe Duffy level, we have an army, ahem, defence force that has half it's strength committed to publicly unwanted missions and liaison jollies around the globe and the other half scratching their arses waiting for something to happen; all the while complaining they're not being paid enough and have to sleep in their cars.

                                Meanwhile, there's "pay as you go" military solution in the RDF that is woefully under-resourced for the sake of political convenience if little else but has the potential, based on international experience to provide highly skilled soldiers for a tiny fraction of the holding cost of their PDF counterparts.

                                Now usually at some point, someone in a decision making capacity is going to have a light bulb moment and the obvious should happen. However this being Ireland, it probably won't. Which is probably just as well.



                                Exactly, and there's around 4000 spare bodies outside of any operational cycle who should be more than capable of stagging on their own gates. If you want more bang from your buck when paying Reservists, you're better off training them when you have them. The Single Force isn't that stretched yet.



                                Which is why I'm waiting on the White Paper. At unit level, Regular/Reserve work well together, but the supports and retention measures just aren't there to make it viable long term. There needs to be serious policy change for the RDF for it to survive, and soon.



                                They haven't gone away, you know.
                                "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                                "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

                                Comment

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