The Future of the Army Reserve - Discuss

[apod]

Of course.Blame the PDF as usual.Nothing to do with the fact that the particular unit that produced those ,ahem, "2*'s" was a cowboy outfit that refused to implement of acknowledge the 2011 syllabus as it involved PT's and instead hid out on Bere island and used the FTT as a prep period for a presidential GoH!!
Nope of courses it's the PDFs fault.
I note nobody gave all the credit to the PDF when the other unit,the old 1 S BDE RDF BTC ran a cracker of a course and produced very capable,and fit, 2*'s.

[DeV]

Of course.Blame the PDF as usual.Nothing to do with the fact that the particular unit that produced those ,ahem, "2*'s" was a cowboy outfit that refused to implement of acknowledge the 2011 syllabus as it involved PT's and instead hid out on Bere island and used the FTT as a prep period for a presidential GoH!!
Nope of courses it's the PDFs fault.
I note nobody gave all the credit to the PDF when the other unit,the old 1 S BDE RDF BTC ran a cracker of a course and produced very capable,and fit, 2*'s.

The RDF may have argued for it but there is no RDF in a position that would allow them to make that decision.

COS
DCOSs
GOC S Bde
J7
D Reserve (does it still exist?)
OC Bde RDF (if still in existence at the time)
G7
OC of the unit

All PDF officers, at least some of them had to approve

[trellheim]

Apod is somewhat correct. As I recall from hearing in 2nd hand there was no wish to run the hard course with the tough standards. ( On the RDF side. the PDF fault was a sin of omission in not kicking certain RDF officers arses very hard )

[DeV]

---

Apod is somewhat correct. As I recall from hearing in 2nd hand there was no wish to run the hard course with the tough standards. ( On the RDF side. the PDF fault was a sin of omission in not kicking certain RDF officers arses very hard )

Multiple sins

The commanders (at all levels) are responsible for everything a unit does and fails to do

[ODIN]

Of course.Blame the PDF as usual.Nothing to do with the fact that the particular unit that produced those ,ahem, "2*'s" was a cowboy outfit that refused to implement of acknowledge the 2011 syllabus as it involved PT's and instead hid out on Bere island and used the FTT as a prep period for a presidential GoH!!
Nope of courses it's the PDFs fault.
I note nobody gave all the credit to the PDF when the other unit,the old 1 S BDE RDF BTC ran a cracker of a course and produced very capable,and fit, 2*'s.

Cracker of a course is right. There was no BS on that course, it ran like a well oiled machine, and the Syllabus was top class. We spent, from memory, three days on the ranges, had an six weekends, two of which were after the full time training, and the course ran alongside a PNCO course at the same time. To say resources were tight is an understatement and the involvement from the RDF support unit was minimal, in fact, we did not have a single instructor from that units RDF establishment. Their PDF cadre were helpful at all times, however, they too had limited involvement.

Bottom line, and my highly biased opinion, the BTCs should have a central role and involvement in the implementation of Recruit, 2-3* and PNCO training. There should be BTC staff present if a Bn is running the course, and there should be BTC officers conducting the star tests to ensure that standards are being met and maintained. This year was the first time that I am aware that there was an RDF Instructors course prior to 1 Bn running recruits in the South, it ran over two weekends, but in reality, it should be a full seven day camp in a similar vein to the old MOI refreshers course.

Finally, on the 2011 course, nick named The Anvil, some of those 2*s were passed out at a higher standard to a number of RDF 3* camps I have seen passed out which were run by the pre re org Bns, they were a testament to what a good Syllabus, which is correctly implemented by dedicated instructors can achieve. It should, based on the results, been the model that subsequent courses were based upon. I even remember the course being somewhat undermined by opponents of it when they referred to it as a "Trial Syllabus".

Recruits and Potential NCOs of the 1 Southern Brigade RDF who had their Passing Out Parade in Stephens Barracks Kilkenny by Irish Defence Forces, on Flickr

[Bravo20]

You are talking about how courses and battalions were run under a different regime. Given the numbers in the BTCs versus the numbers in line units any viable recruit training will have to be done by the battalions with oversight from BTC.

[F_M]

And it both cases the unit CO were? .... PDF!?

The PDF had nothing to do with either course by and large with the exception of Q staff maybe.
I did hear a rumour, and it is only hearsay, that it was the GOC that sanctioned the Bere Island course knowing that they were running an invalid course based off of a syllabus that was superseded.

The syllabus that the BTC ran off of was the official syllabus, it now has been superseded by TS 16/14, which I think is a step back and will only produce more sandbags.

The BTCs should be the ones running recruit, 2-3*, PNCO, All Arms Standard NCO courses. They have the knowledge, will, and capability to do it and do it well.

This year was the first time that I am aware that there was an RDF Instructors course prior to 1 Bn running recruits in the South

That course was a Pre-orientation Course for Instructors and was first run about 14 months ago for Reserve Instructors and is mandatory for anyone instructing now.


Does the NCO Training Wing run the All Arms Standard NCO course?

[DeV]

To say that PDF have no involvement in a course is wrong!
Who approved programmes, training weekends, mandays, pay etc.

Who conducts PDF recruit training? PDF operational units

The BTC role is to supervise all training conducted within the Bde they can't conduct any course without external support with the amount of personnel they have (in fact the same can be said for most training institutions).

The Pre Course Orientation for Instructors Cse is a 5 day course with a set syllabus. It covers aspects of the MOI manual and other subjects. It is a requirement for all indtructors on a course and has been for 7 years !!!!

The new recruit syllabus is based on the previous RDF and current PDF syllabi.

Does the NCO Training Wing run the All Arms Standard NCO course?

Correct the only institution allowed if I remember the syllabus correctly

[apod]

A couple of issues.
1/ The 2011 pots courses were ran pre single force when PDF officers only cared about one thing when assigned to an RDF cadre.The allowance.Their was a certain tangible amount of let them do what they want as long as it keeps them quiet.Not the case now that the RDF coys are under the eye of the PDF unit commanders who will get their asses handed to them and jeprodise their careers if their reserve elements go rogue.

2/ PDF BTC's can and do run recruit training.The next platoon to start in 1 Bde will be in the BTC. Operational units are really only tasked with running recruit platoons as the BTC's don't have the manpower to run multiple platoons and still run all the other courses required of them.

3/ PDF BTC's have oversight over all recruit training being ran in their Bdes.They can show up any time and inspect ALL aspects of the training from facilities to training documentation etc etc.

4/ Operational units usually supply NCO's to the BTC when it runs a recruit platoon with the amount based upon the projected numbers of recruits that will be assigned to the operational unit when they complete training.

And finally while the PDF may have had the overall supervisory role the RDF have to take responsibilty for their own actions aswell and stop trying to pass the buck.The unit that ran that mingy course seriously opened themselves up to all kinds of trouble had any incident occurred. They ran a course with a syllabus which THEY KNEW had been supeceded against the orders of the DCOS. In effect the troops they "passed out" are not even properly qualified 2*'s.The RDF Coy commander,the CS,the PLN Officer and his staff and yes the PDF unit OC should have been shit canned for that.

[DeV]

The unit commander may have been cadre but he was still PDF (as were the people above him) - they all allowed it to happen and approved it (and not all of those were cadre).

The BTCs don't have enough RDF personnel to staff a recruit section never mind a platoon

The fact remains that while RDF personnel may have made a submission and implemented the decision, that decision was made by a member of the PDF (actually probably multiple members)

[F_M]

What does it matter if they were PDF or RDF that approved it.
People decided that they wanted to go off and be bags and make more bags and people felt that that was alright! We, as Reservists, should not be doing our utmost to be useless shits.

If the BTCs need more staff they simply put out a demand for staff to the units in the brigade.

[DeV]

What does it matter if they were PDF or RDF that approved it.
People decided that they wanted to go off and be bags and make more bags and people felt that that was alright! We, as Reservists, should not be doing our utmost to be useless shits.

If the BTCs need more staff they simply put out a demand for staff to the units in the brigade.

Because it isn't just an issue of the RDF's making

[F_M]

What? The Bere Island Brigade?
That is entirely of the RDFs making.

The PDF didn't send Reservists down there so that they could drink, ride and have beach parties, the RDF asked to go down there, neigh, demanded from what I heard.
The PDF involved then wouldn't have cared what they were approving because they weren't going to be held accountable. It would have been a case of "If I sign this, will you go away?".

You can't hold the PDF accountable for our ineptness. We are all big boys here and we are responsible for what we do, how we do it and what we produce from it.

[Buck]

DeV, to be honest, that's the attitude that's gotten us where we are.

[DeV]

What? The Bere Island Brigade?
That is entirely of the RDFs making.

The PDF didn't send Reservists down there so that they could drink, ride and have beach parties, the RDF asked to go down there, neigh, demanded from what I heard.
The PDF involved then wouldn't have cared what they were approving because they weren't going to be held accountable. It would have been a case of "If I sign this, will you go away?".

You can't hold the PDF accountable for our ineptness. We are all big boys here and we are responsible for what we do, how we do it and what we produce from it.

DeV, to be honest, that's the attitude that's gotten us where we are.

If you are an RDF coy commander you are responsible to the unit commander (who happens to be PDF) - plus his SOs (and BSM for other ranks) - for everything your coy does and fails to do.

Guess what the unit commander is responsible to the GOC

As I keep saying the RDF is far from blameless but to quote an instructor a few here maybe familiar with "delegation without supervision is like vodka without orange juice, it doesn't work"