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  • The Defence Acts and regulations do not bar reservists from overseas service.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by trellheim View Post
      The Defence Acts and regulations do not bar reservists from overseas service.
      They specifically allow only members of the PDF to serve overseas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
        2 CIS set up some kind of a Reserve Innovation cell AFAIK they set up a 3G secure network and some CISCO software for the Battlegroup.

        They can't go overseas as they are reservists.
        The RDF lads already did something like this for the All Army shoot in Finner - last year I think. Had some kind of wireless link between the camp where the info was being collated, and the various FPs
        "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

        Comment


        • They specifically allow only members of the PDF to serve overseas
          Your reading is incorrect. Alternatively I may be wrong. post your excerpt from the Act which only allows PDF serve overseas.

          Remember - it must be the Defence Act or DFRs
          "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

          "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

          Comment


          • Interesting. The 1954 Act only provides for full time reserve service in tinge of national emergency, so there is no provision for full time service otherwise. At the same time, the Act only proceeded for service outside the state for the PDF while onboard ships. All overseas service had to be voluntary only. So that has changed... Where and how? Has any update been made for reserve service not in the 1954 Act?
            If not, reserves can only be called up on foot of a national emergency, so there is no provision for allowing a reserve to volunteer for full time service of any kind, much less overseas, unless I'm missing something.

            Comment


            • First off probably better you read the restated acts. Theres an uptodate version on the Law reform commission

              http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/..._1954_0018.PDF

              . Also be extremely careful on the meaning of words, and remember because something is not stated, does not mean it is not illegal.
              Last edited by trellheim; 25 October 2016, 10:57.
              "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

              "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by trellheim View Post
                Your reading is incorrect. Alternatively I may be wrong. post your excerpt from the Act which only allows PDF serve overseas.

                Remember - it must be the Defence Act or DFRs
                There is zero provision in the Defence Act to allow transfer from RDF to PDF (even for the FLR, you can be called out on permanent service but nowhere does it say that you are transferred to the PDF).

                Sections 85, 86, 88 and 89 all say a reservist can serve in the State.

                The are multiple sections that refer to service outside the State, every single one includes the words "Permanent Defence Force". Eg Section 4 as amended says "A member of the Permanent Defence Force who is serving outside the State....."

                No where does it say members of the RDF cannot serve overseas but equally there are multiple occasions where it says the PDF can (with no reference to RDF).

                Comment


                • Originally posted by trellheim View Post
                  Also be extremely careful on the meaning of words, and remember because something is not stated, does not mean it is not illegal.
                  Doesn't mean it is legal either!

                  Unlawful may be a better word, legally a member of the RDF cannot serve overseas
                  Last edited by DeV; 25 October 2016, 11:53.

                  Comment


                  • here is zero provision in the Defence Act to allow transfer from RDF to PDF (even for the FLR, you can be called out on permanent service but nowhere does it say that you are transferred to the PDF).

                    Sections 85, 86, 88 and 89 all say a reservist can serve in the State.

                    The are multiple sections that refer to service outside the State, every single one includes the words "Permanent Defence Force". Eg Section 4 as amended says "A member of the Permanent Defence Force who is serving outside the State....."

                    No where does it say members of the RDF cannot serve overseas but equally there are multiple occasions where it says the PDF can (with no reference to RDF).
                    Your wording is incorrect, you are paraphrasing.

                    The key word used in section 86 is 'liable' which means you may be legally required depending on the other provisions . This means if someone orders me to go I must comply, and as a reservist, I cannot be compelled to go overseas. It says nothing about my volunteering for service. Why do you think there has been several succeeding acts compelling PDF to serve in certain missions on the newer contracts. Compare Paragraph 85 and 86
                    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                    Comment


                    • Thanks for that.
                      I'll state the situation as I see it and am happy to be corrected.
                      Liability for overseas service applies specifically to members of the PDF, enacted so that men could be sent overseas whether they volunteered or not. so reservists cannot be forced to serve overseas, even if called out. But this doesn't exclude voluntary service.
                      Men can be transferred from PDF to reserve and back, but not the reverse.
                      So reservists would have to leave the RDF, be enlisted for a period not exceeding twelve years... But they are then PDF members with a new period of service. Still doesn't exclude overseas service on a voluntary basis.
                      Reserves can be called up for a period not exceeding 3 months, but this can be renewed, by public and personal notice. Given limits on days of paid training, this seems a requirement in order to mobilise and pay a reservist.
                      This can be done by declaring a state of emergency or requiring reserves for ATCP.

                      This last seems to preclude mobilising a reserve in any other circumstance unless he is unpaid, and also seems to preclude UN service overseas.
                      In addition no member of the reserve is regarded as being a superior officer in relation to any member of the PDF, which brings its own issues.

                      So, the way I see it, there is a statutory limit on the amount of time a reserve can be in service and paid for, except in the case of a callout under a state of emergency or explicitly for ATCP - which seems to be the only mechanism for putting reservists into fulltime service.
                      All such reservists lack authority over members of the PDF, by statute.
                      I don't see how reserves can be sent overseas except as unpaid private soldiers without a change to the DFA. But I'm not a lawyer and would love a better explanation.
                      Last edited by expat01; 25 October 2016, 12:52.

                      Comment


                      • 1. You are confusing liability with volunteering - they are not the same. PDF on newer contracts can be detailed to go, older ones cant' for certain missions IIRC, BUT they CAN VOLUNTEER TO GO.

                        observe the similarity above.

                        2. Reservists may be given full authority over PDF ( the only exception is signing clothing forms would you believe ) . If a PDF OC puts a section of PDF under my command it's legal for me to issue them orders. See A18.
                        "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                        "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by trellheim View Post
                          Your wording is incorrect, you are paraphrasing.

                          The key word used in section 86 is 'liable' which means you may be legally required depending on the other provisions . This means if someone orders me to go I must comply, and as a reservist, I cannot be compelled to go overseas. It says nothing about my volunteering for service. Why do you think there has been several succeeding acts compelling PDF to serve in certain missions on the newer contracts. Compare Paragraph 85 and 86
                          According to that Restatement no member of the PDF can be ordered overseas but they are.

                          Look at Section 5 (a member of the PDF overseas is on active service)





                          Originally posted by expat01 View Post
                          Thanks for that.
                          I'll state the situation as I see it and am happy to be corrected.
                          Liability for overseas service applies specifically to members of the PDF, enacted so that men could be sent overseas whether they volunteered or not. so reservists cannot be forced to serve overseas, even if called out. But this doesn't exclude voluntary service.
                          Men can be transferred from PDF to reserve and back, but not the reverse.
                          So reservists would have to leave the RDF, be enlisted for a period not exceeding twelve years... But they are then PDF members with a new period of service. Still doesn't exclude overseas service on a voluntary basis.
                          Reserves can be called up for a period not exceeding 3 months, but this can be renewed, by public and personal notice. Given limits on days of paid training, this seems a requirement in order to mobilise and pay a reservist.
                          This can be done by declaring a state of emergency or requiring reserves for ATCP.

                          This last seems to preclude mobilising a reserve in any other circumstance unless he is unpaid, and also seems to preclude UN service overseas.
                          In addition no member of the reserve is regarded as being a superior officer in relation to any member of the PDF, which brings its own issues.

                          So, the way I see it, there is a statutory limit on the amount of time a reserve can be in service and paid for, except in the case of a callout under a state of emergency or explicitly for ATCP - which seems to be the only mechanism for putting reservists into fulltime service.
                          All such reservists lack authority over members of the PDF, by statute.
                          I don't see how reserves can be sent overseas except as unpaid private soldiers without a change to the DFA. But I'm not a lawyer and would love a better explanation.

                          Comment


                          • And still and all the key phrase is 'liable'
                            "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                            "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by trellheim View Post
                              And still and all the key phrase is 'liable'
                              No, it isn't.
                              The key for me is that I can see no way to mobilise a reservist for the length of time required for overseas service in law except in a state of national emergency or for ATCP. A reservist cannot be sent overseas because he cannot be mobilised under law for such a purpose. That's the point I need refuted.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bam Bam View Post
                                At the moment there are PDF overseas wearing cameras and the RDF CIS guys are piloting them like drones from Abbeyshrule.
                                Constructive post.Thanks for that
                                "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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