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  • Originally posted by California Tanker View Post

    Why? If you're going to provide a service at the cost of your time, should you not be compensated for it?
    Honored to be visited by a YouTube legend!!!
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by California Tanker View Post

      Why? If you're going to provide a service at the cost of your time, should you not be compensated for it?
      Legend indeed. I was only enjoying the second video on the Challenger 1 prototype earlier.

      On the compensation point. I'd imagine a lot of those still on here are either in and very dedicated. They've spent most of their hours unpaid. Sometimes I think there is almost a pride taken in it.

      I think it could be part of the saving of the reserve but never seems to attract much currency here.

      I just think we need to be compensating new joiners for everything even up to a quarter days pay for a parade night. Payment for all training done any weekend. It's not even about the money. The sums won't be large. When it's paid, the role becomes something to be taken more seriously and you feel more appreciated.

      California Tanker
      My tank is bigger...
      California Tanker, you may not reply again for a long while but would you see drop off in E-3s and E-4s (and maybe even a few E-5s) turning up to drill weekends in the Guard if they were unpaid?

      Comment


      • I remember from my TA days, I could have earned more money on a day’s overtime than a weekend exercise, and drill night sometimes involved turning down shifts.

        The money wasn’t a big incentive, but it meant I felt professional, the Army considered my time had worth. That goes a long way towards making someone feel part of something and a valued member of the unit with something positive to contribute.

        After all, reserves are training, in their own time, to develop skills that may require them to put themselves in harms way for their country. That deserves taking seriously by everyone.
        'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
        'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
        Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
        He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
        http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

        Comment


        • Pay for all time given and overtime rates for cadre.

          Comment


          • Do away with parade nights, they achieve very little in terms of training. Move toward a weekend model, and advise of the dates at least 6 months out from the first weekend. Pay for everything then.
            What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
              I remember from my TA days, I could have earned more money on a day’s overtime than a weekend exercise, and drill night sometimes involved turning down shifts.

              The money wasn’t a big incentive, but it meant I felt professional, the Army considered my time had worth. That goes a long way towards making someone feel part of something and a valued member of the unit with something positive to contribute.

              After all, reserves are training, in their own time, to develop skills that may require them to put themselves in harms way for their country. That deserves taking seriously by everyone.
              I couldn't agree more. A day's pay is about 73 euro before tax. For a student, who'll pay little tax on that, it's not a terrible return for spending a day doing something which interests you.

              For someone who's been in a while longer, they could be paying up to 52% tax on it so the amount essentially becomes almost token. You do feel more valued however.

              If a quarter days pay was made for a parade night, that's almost a tenner after tax for me so at least covers my travel costs.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ODIN View Post
                Do away with parade nights, they achieve very little in terms of training. Move toward a weekend model, and advise of the dates at least 6 months out from the first weekend. Pay for everything then.
                Also 100% agree here. Same goes for ranges, fitness tests, etc. Anything we currently log as 'field days'. Of course there does need to be consideration for ensuring that the day paid is quality planned training.

                So from my perspective, a full days RHIB training should always be paid. A few hours spent unproductively training in a barracks before heading home early of a Saturday should of course not be. All to be adequately documented.


                The not having dates six months in advance has always been my largest bug bear with the organisation being honest. To be fair, courses themselves are well flagged in advance as being incoming but the dates are often very last minute and subject to change even up to only a few days out from when they are due to take place. Is this just an RDF thing or do PDF courses suffer similarly? Giving someone even 1-2 months’ notice for training taking place over multiple weekends isn’t enough notice. End of story.

                I completely understand that unforeseen circumstances can occur but these should be irregular….
                .

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ODIN View Post
                  Do away with parade nights, they achieve very little in terms of training. Move toward a weekend model, and advise of the dates at least 6 months out from the first weekend. Pay for everything then.
                  Depends on the unit and the rank…. Those hours add up

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post

                    I couldn't agree more. A day's pay is about 73 euro before tax. For a student, who'll pay little tax on that, it's not a terrible return for spending a day doing something which interests you.

                    For someone who's been in a while longer, they could be paying up to 52% tax on it so the amount essentially becomes almost token. You do feel more valued however.

                    If a quarter days pay was made for a parade night, that's almost a tenner after tax for me so at least covers my travel costs.
                    Remember pdf are paid 24/7 so your math is off. You are asking for 6hrs pay for a two hr parade night. Doesn't seem fair to pdf lads. However if you could get it over with line with the dept, I'm sure it help the case to allow pay on 40hrs a week and everything after that is overtime. So cadre would be out every weekend with rdf, they would make a killing.

                    And Remember your already paid attending medicals

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by batterysgt View Post

                      Remember pdf are paid 24/7 so your math is off. You are asking for 6hrs pay for a two hr parade night. Doesn't seem fair to pdf lads. However if you could get it over with line with the dept, I'm sure it help the case to allow pay on 40hrs a week and everything after that is overtime. So cadre would be out every weekend with rdf, they would make a killing.

                      And Remember your already paid attending medicals
                      Absolutely no way on earth

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                      • Originally posted by DeV View Post

                        Absolutely no way on earth
                        But wouldn't it be great! I'd imagine the retention problem would stop, the minute the minister signed it off.

                        Spare a thought for the poor cpl working in discharges, it would be like that carlsburg complaints ad except, our solder would walk into a dusty room and be greeted by our poor cpl, who looks like like the templar Knight in Indian Jones and the Holy grail, bored and not really practised in the art of discharges.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by batterysgt View Post

                          Remember pdf are paid 24/7 so your math is off. You are asking for 6hrs pay for a two hr parade night. Doesn't seem fair to pdf lads. However if you could get it over with line with the dept, I'm sure it help the case to allow pay on 40hrs a week and everything after that is overtime. So cadre would be out every weekend with rdf, they would make a killing.

                          And Remember your already paid attending medicals
                          My maths aren't off but I may not have provided full detail. I'm basing two hours on how the UK reserves operate. They assume a day's pay (FOR RESERVES!) is eight hours so a 'drill night' is a quarter days pay so two hours. We all know that the PDF complete far more hours and there are working time considerations which are well discussed on other threads.

                          If decision making on incentivising the reserve requires ensuring all pay decisions are direclty aligned to the PDF, nothing will ever change. Reserve and Permananent service aren't comparable. I highly doubt the DoD would ever agree that a reservist is paid in 24 hour blocks of a days pay for other obvious and far larger work place relations reasons anyway! Also, 6 EUR (before tax) isn't much of an incentive to get people up and productive of a week night.

                          DeV , you're a long standing member of the RDF and on here. Putting you on the spot but do you think RDF should be paid for parade nights and ALL productive training days?
                          Auldsod
                          Sergeant Major
                          Last edited by Auldsod; 7 April 2022, 10:52.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post

                            My maths aren't off but I may not have provided full detail. I'm basing two hours on how the UK reserves operate. They assume a day's pay (FOR RESERVES!) is eight hours so a 'drill night' is a quarter days pay so two hours. We all know that the PDF complete far more hours and there are working time considerations which are well discussed on other threads.

                            If decision making on incentivising the reserve requires ensuring all pay decisions are direclty aligned to the PDF, nothing will ever change. Reserve and Permananent service aren't comparable. I highly doubt the DoD would ever agree that a reservist is paid in 24 hour blocks of a days pay for other obvious and far larger work place relations reasons anyway! Also, 6 EUR (before tax) isn't much of an incentive to get people up and productive of a week night.

                            DeV , you're a long standing member of the RDF and on here. Putting you on the spot but do you think RDF should be paid for parade nights and ALL productive training days?
                            Absolutely I think we should …. will it ever happen…. No

                            but no one should we get more than the equivalent PDF member, no way RACO or PDFORRA would allow it either

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post

                              California Tanker
                              My tank is bigger...
                              California Tanker, you may not reply again for a long while but would you see drop off in E-3s and E-4s (and maybe even a few E-5s) turning up to drill weekends in the Guard if they were unpaid?
                              Undoubtedly. Frankly, there would be a drop-off in all ranks, but even more the lower ones, especially those like in my unit where we have to take time off work and pay a fair bit in gas to get to drill.

                              We generally will accept roughly coming out even (especially with retirement benefits after 20 years) for a short while if the unit happens to require it at the time, but when we get to the point of losing money routinely, people will leave, especially if they've already earned their VA loan, GI bill, etc.
                              Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by California Tanker View Post

                                Undoubtedly. Frankly, there would be a drop-off in all ranks, but even more the lower ones, especially those like in my unit where we have to take time off work and pay a fair bit in gas to get to drill.

                                We generally will accept roughly coming out even (especially with retirement benefits after 20 years) for a short while if the unit happens to require it at the time, but when we get to the point of losing money routinely, people will leave, especially if they've already earned their VA loan, GI bill, etc.
                                Of course, the pension in the Guard is a major carrot. My brother-in-law (probably the least outdoorsie, military-minded person I know) stuck it out for that. Of course, being an officer in the Chaplains Corps meant that his idiosyncrasies were tolerated a lot more than if he'd been a PFC in an infantry squad!
                                'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                                'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                                Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                                He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                                http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

                                Comment

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