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  • Fair play to her. Yes, she should get a subsidised camp.

    I disagree

    how will she ever learn the value of work if she gets it for free

    she works her fingers to the bone and enjoys the rewards

    if she got it for nothing then there would be no effort in it and therefore no reward

    this is her lesson for life to come


    Hedgehog, believe it or not, I was agreeing with the post you made in this thread

    I am so used to being the sole voice of reason in this shop that I just take for granted that people disagree with me

    sorry

    THe RDF IS a waste of money. It does NOT serve any purpose. Get rid of it and you could have your subsidised camp for your daughter and hell, send them on a STV when they're older if they show an interest.

    your missing my point the RDF is only a waste because the dept have no interest in

    actually using our reserve the proper way a reserve should be


    and when the heir to the Hog non fortune want anything then they go out and earn a few bob

    and then they can do it

    I am a miserable sod- I dont give them handouts

    anything they get they earn either through work, good exam results or just plain bribery
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Docman View Post
      Hey, Why don't we go all the way and disband the RDF & The PDF. Turn the NS & AC into a Coast Guard. Makes the most sense financially.

      Any argument that can be applied to disbanding the RDF can also be applied to the PDF.
      I said this in retaliation to Hedgehog. The way his original post was written was is such a way as to cause conflict between RDF & PDF. This has been a common thread through his more recent posts - whether on purpose or not. It was the reaction he wanted.

      However, my true opinion is different.
      The RDF had a way of making itself relevant. It was handed a golden opportunity to make it indispensable. This was Integration. Integration could have provided the PDF Battalions with a manoeuvre element which would have made them far more effective. It would have provided the RDF with enhanced training & skills, purpose & equipment.
      It is ironic that by attempting to ensure their personal powerbases and killing Integration, most of the anti-Integration mafia and senior officers have probably doomed the RDF and wiped out those power bases that they cherished so much. The RDF is only guaranteed survival until Dec 2009 - the end of the current white paper. The 2010 white paper may just finish it off.

      The PDF is relevant and has an important purpose, something desperately needed by the RDF.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Docman View Post
        I said this in retaliation to Hedgehog. The way his original post was written was is such a way as to cause conflict between RDF & PDF. This has been a common thread through his more recent posts - whether on purpose or not. It was the reaction he wanted.

        However, my true opinion is different.
        The RDF had a way of making itself relevant. It was handed a golden opportunity to make it indispensable. This was Integration. Integration could have provided the PDF Battalions with a manoeuvre element which would have made them far more effective. It would have provided the RDF with enhanced training & skills, purpose & equipment.
        It is ironic that by attempting to ensure their personal powerbases and killing Integration, most of the anti-Integration mafia and senior officers have probably doomed the RDF and wiped out those power bases that they cherished so much. The RDF is only guaranteed survival until Dec 2009 - the end of the current white paper. The 2010 white paper may just finish it off.

        The PDF is relevant and has an important purpose, something desperately needed by the RDF.

        Which is why, I would argue, integration should have applied across the board, to the entire RDF- would have killed off any anti-integration "mafia" in one fell swoop.
        "Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here...this is the War Room!"

        Comment


        • The way his original post was written was is such a way as to cause conflict between RDF & PDF. This has been a common thread through his more recent posts - whether on purpose or not. It was the reaction he wanted
          NO NO and NO

          why why and why

          would I do it

          I started the lazy Nuns thread for fun

          this I posted on because I believe

          that we are at impasse in regards everything in thei COuntry

          so in effect we can have our year zero with out the skulls


          why would you be so paranoid as to my motives
          Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
          Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
          The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
          The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
          The best lack all conviction, while the worst
          Are full of passionate intensity.

          Comment


          • Docman made a very interesting point re: the White Paper to 2009. I haven't read it but would be interested in finding out more.

            I have posted here before that IMHO the DOD/Top Brass/Finance would be more than happy if the AR was brought to an end.

            I feel that when the DOD get down to the nitty gritty of making savings over the next few years the mandays, etc are going to be reduced significantly. I would go so far as to say that we could end up with 7 days full time max with the exception for a few courses. I remember during the 80's a Pots course being run over three weekends (unpaid) and one week full time. Further uniforms, transport, rations, etc will form part of the mix = cutbacks.

            Per the two Brians the €2Bm savings this year is only the start with €4Bm each for 2010 & 2011 and more cuts up to 2013.

            Here's a plan. In each Bde area, the Bns become Coys to form one Bn, the CS and CSS Coys become Plns in the new Bn, ie one reserve BN for ecah PDF Bde. Do away with a lot of cadre, locations, etc, etc. Then just become more selective with recruitment, formal contracts, fitness tests, bonus points for entry to PDF, etc. If we are lucky.

            Now how do you get rid of the numbers. Simple, service no longer required, fitness tests, attendence, etc. Inability to pay. Now where did I hear that expression before.

            With the rate of job losses over the last few months and with Brian Cowan openly saying that unemployment will reach 400k this year any political pressure coming from AR sources will be little or none. Quite simply the country will be in such a state that you will get a very short answer from your local TD. Indeed some ecomonists and commentators say the figue will be significantly higher over the next few years. They only have to be right once.

            So leaving aside the financial cost of supporting people and familes who are out of work, the whole area of the social cost is incalculable in terms of education, homes being repossed, peoples' self esteem, the health service, etc.

            I feel we are in for a big change.

            Rant over.
            I'm not a number, I'm a free man.
            Who is number 1?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Steamy Window View Post
              Which is why, I would argue, integration should have applied across the board, to the entire RDF- would have killed off any anti-integration "mafia" in one fell swoop.
              That would have made sense, and that was why it was not done, previous ways of damageing the RDF, [lunatic hearing standards, age restrictions, ect ] were not working fast enough.
              So some civil servant came up with the divide and conquer idea that is intergration, and it has worked, because of the begrudgers who don't want it and the elitist would-be rambos on the other side, and both have used it to attack those on both sides of the middle who are just trying to get on with it.
              So the elements of our system who do not want us to have a defence force get their way.
              is it too late for a re-think of the behaviour on both sides I wonder?
              Turkey
              Brigadier General
              Last edited by Turkey; 10 February 2009, 10:26.
              "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
              Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
              Illegitimi non carborundum

              Comment


              • Given the diabolical attendance rates and low recruitment, is there an actual need for full reserve units (ie Inf Battalions and Arty Regiments) in each brigade? Would it make more sense to have sub-units only, and work off one inf coy affiliated to each PDF Bn and one reserve arty bty per PDF Regt for each brigade?


                Edit - is that just a way of saying integrate the lot? :confused:
                Edit - ThePrisoner - missed your post there, I agree with more selective entry and more stringent requiremets for new recruits. Ideally you should be able to say at the start 'we expect this from you, if you can't commit to that, we don't want you'. Unfortunately units are so desperate for recruits they'll take anyone who passes a medical and security check.
                concussion
                Gunner
                Last edited by concussion; 10 February 2009, 10:58.
                "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

                Comment


                • Originally posted by The Prisoner View Post

                  Here's a plan. In each Bde area, the Bns become Coys to form one Bn, the CS and CSS Coys become Plns in the new Bn, ie one reserve BN for ecah PDF Bde. Do away with a lot of cadre, locations, etc, etc. Then just become more selective with recruitment, formal contracts, fitness tests, bonus points for entry to PDF, etc. If we are lucky.

                  Now how do you get rid of the numbers. Simple, service no longer required, fitness tests, attendence, etc. Inability to pay. Now where did I hear that expression before.
                  Originally posted by concussion View Post
                  Given the diabolical attendance rates and low recruitment, is there an actual need for full reserve units (ie Inf Battalions and Arty Regiments) in each brigade? Would it make more sense to have sub-units only, and work off one inf coy affiliated to each PDF Bn and one reserve arty bty per PDF Regt for each brigade?


                  Edit - is that just a way of saying integrate the lot? :confused:
                  Edit - ThePrisoner - missed your post there, I agree with more selective entry and more stringent requiremets for new recruits. Ideally you should be able to say at the start 'we expect this from you, if you can't commit to that, we don't want you'. Unfortunately units are so desperate for recruits they'll take anyone who passes a medical and security check.

                  This is EXACTLY what integration is about!! But do the PDF want it!?

                  Comment


                  • But do the PDF want it!?
                    Were the rank and file members of the DF ever asked for there opinions on INtergration

                    we are Soldiers and we do what we are told

                    but I can never remember anyone asking me or evien briefing me on

                    something whcih may have a real impact on my career
                    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                    Are full of passionate intensity.

                    Comment


                    • There'd be a lot of RDF commandants without appointments if it happened. Having said that, the rumour going around is that our battery is, in future, going to be commanded by a captain, not a commandant. It's only a rumour but it makes perferct sense. Of course, if the RDF battalions were to be scaled down to companys it flies in the face of keeping the reserve as a contingency as you no longer have the structure for large expansion.
                      "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

                      Comment


                      • There is alreay a lot of RDF Comdts with pretend appointments so why not stop pretending. Dis-band the imaginary units and tell those involved (as the prisioner says) "services no longer required".
                        Without supplies no army is brave.

                        —Frederick the Great,

                        Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                        Comment


                        • I think we can agree that this is a bad time to be a RDF senior NCO or officer - if anybody will be recieving a letter stating "services no longer required" it'll be them. BUT - that (hopefully) means that only the best will be retained, and we'll get a smaller, more professional reserve. Unless they decide to dispand the lot!

                          Comment


                          • If that were to happen you are effectively losing 6 infantry batallions and 2 artillery regiments - if the time came for the RDF to be mobilised its combat strength would only be a third or its current potential strength. In that case - is there any need to have it at all?


                            Integrate everything - you theoretically have a more efficient, professional force but with less than half the current establishment, and only a 1/3 of the combat units. Would it be any good in the scenario for which we're kept?

                            Leave it as is - you have a less than cabable force which mirrors the PDF and has the structure to be expanded easily to it's full strength. But would it be any good in the scenario for which were kept....
                            concussion
                            Gunner
                            Last edited by concussion; 10 February 2009, 12:01.
                            "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

                            Comment


                            • The problem wth intergrate everything is that the RDF operated weekends. The DF in the main operates week days only. Now we all knoiw that the DF is not going to change so unless you are going to only recruit people with the ability to give up week days you are on a looser from the out set.

                              This is not anti-intergration.

                              I believe that each RDF unit should be part of a PDF unit and that a formula should be found.

                              However IMHO that the Senior RDF personnel will allow the destruction of their ivory towers nor will the Senior ranks of the PDF tollerate any significant change that would accomodate the RDF.
                              Without supplies no army is brave.

                              —Frederick the Great,

                              Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                                This is EXACTLY what integration is about!! But do the PDF want it!?
                                Not quite. Intagration allowed for a two tier system. My idea was for the entire force. One up to speed, but significantly smaller force.

                                Well not my idea really in that I'm sure the DOD/Finance have thought long and hard about this. Maybe just waiting for the opportunity and the next few years could be as good as it gets from their point of view.

                                To bring the idea further there will be another round of barrack closures. The army will end up with:
                                East - McKee (handy for the airport, the Aras and the M50), Dundalk & Kilbride
                                West - Athlone, Finner & Carnagh
                                South - Cork, Limerick & Kilworth
                                DFTC - Curragh & the Glen
                                Everthing else gone. I know some people will say the Army own this, that's leased, there's a ground rent on the other, etc. But do they really know the true legal position, not just what somebody told them.

                                As RDF numbers would be slashed no great problem in finding accomadation for FFT.

                                NS - one base - Cork

                                AC - one base, but could loose some land and/or become a duel facility.

                                If or when the Gov. gets deparate for cash anything goes. All this talk about borrowing €Bm's is fine in theory but for every borrower there has to be a lender. Currently, we are not top of the lenders' credit list.
                                I'm not a number, I'm a free man.
                                Who is number 1?

                                Comment

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