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  • #31
    Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
    We can discuss all we like

    but its irrelevant

    orders are orders

    this is a valid leagal order

    I cant really see the problem
    The problem is that we are dealing with the Irish Army where incompetence & contradiction are the order of the day. Orders are orders except where the orders contradict themselves. The Bebo orders has yet to be contradicted and therefore stand but I learned a long time ago that orders only last as long as the next contradiction. And then there is the orders which leave more confusion than they resolve.

    I once held in my hand 2 orders written by Captains in Bde HQs which directly contradicted each other to the point where people merely obeyed the one that suited them at the time.

    And there is the famous Written order that stopped all units using text to inform soldiers of upcoming training etc. only for a COS to then verbally encourage every unit to do the opposite.

    Hell, you open any 2 manuals are they will usually contradict each other somewhere - such as TAM 1 which encourages media interviews and how to conduct them as opposed to DF Press office directives which say the opposite.

    By the way, if you read the specific order relating to Bebo etc. sites "Defence Forces Imagery", paragraph 3 contradicts para 2 and para 1 is total rubbish. Even within the order, it oks pictures on Bebo and also bans them. Typical army sense.
    Docman
    Closed Account
    Last edited by Docman; 19 March 2009, 19:33.

    Comment


    • #32
      Have to agree that orders are orders and members are legally obliged to follow them.

      The owner of the images is ultimately responsible for where they end up so really there is no excuse to how they were posted.

      However having transgressed the order in the past it was my own descision to do so and was prepared to take what ever reprimand followed. Typically no one ever decided to take issue with what was posted

      It was the same thing about posting on this forum, some of the things I said maynot have been in line with what the DF would have wanted as a public perception, some of it being contraversial to say the least. I have never been shy about who I was and when challenged faced these people down.

      I don't advocate resisting authority but I often question the legitamcy and the origins of some of the instructions I have recieved through the years . I often questioned the ability of those issuing the order and still sometimes do.

      You swore the oath , took the money , you have to take the shit that goes with it, all part of the job , but as in any work place there are a few non conformers and free thinkers out there , I'm claiming to be that percentage in my own defence .

      I don't agree with the DF press office having to vet all material just stuff that may be open to question. Problem is no one will take responsibilty at a local level to this hence the rules are broken and material is often only highlighted after it makes the internet.
      In an ideal world one would think that would be a level of maturity in the DF not to post material which is quetionable, how wrong is that perception.

      the idiots have made it difficult for those who have the maturity and these idiots are not unique to the RDF.

      Is there a way around it.. no!

      the order is in place because some one abused the trust and thought he was a genius posting photos of his mates arse while wearing the uniform.

      While the idiot mentality exists and is very much a live and well on some bebo pages the order will stand.

      Blame the idiots, not those who were pushed into making the order.
      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
        We can discuss all we like
        I can only keep repeating - Obey all orders
        Well if you can point it out to me in the DFRs whereby it is illegal to have a photograph of yourself in uiniform and so on, then point it out to me.
        I am sure that fireplaces up and down the country will be swept aside



        And there are plenty of examples out there, even before this social networking phenomenon came about. Namely a very well run website by a certain RDF unit (which is still running today). And IMO if you were being particular about posting DF material on a website.
        The fact is that it is not in the DFRs in any way, shape or form. The DF know this and they know that they can't order people to remove said pics etc. because it is a massive legal loophole for them to do so in relation to copyright.

        It is not a legal order to ask someone to remove it or prohibit them from posting things on their sites. Providing that it doesn't pose a security risk.
        The bottom line.


        And so much for this being an intellectual debate....I was wondering how long it would take before someone who can't think for themselves would wade in with some dogmatism.
        It seems that opinion on their use is also reflective of a generational gap too. Which shows in the FOR and AGAINST sides of the argument.


        I think the opening post wasn't concerned with whether or not they are allowed, but as to whether they are a beneficial recruitment tool if the medium is used correctly.
        Which is what the debate was originally intended to focus on.

        That was the entire question that the original was asking- do they have recruitment potential if they are used correctly?
        Using technology and moving with the times really, when you take a step back and actually look at it.

        So the real question should be asked of the people who do run said bebo pages and have they worked in recruiting for their respective units.
        I think this is what Mallen83 originally wanted to know.

        What Mallen83 was referring to was the idea of using social networking sites to entice recruits to join the RDF by actually showing potential recruits what people in the RDF do. And a picture paints 1000 words as they say.
        And I have seen the site he mentioned and it is pretty accomplished too. Likewise the Cav and Medics pages too.

        There is nothing on the sites that you wouldn't see on IMO and all the photos are showing the RDF in a very good light. Not the exact same pictures, but pictures along the very same calibre and context. Thereby fulfilling the role of publicity, to a certain extent, that the DF press office is falling short of.

        So back to mallen83 and his original question. He wasn't concerned with whether they are allowed or not, but as to whether they have any potential as recruitment tools if they are utilised properly.

        I think they do.



        P.S. I would follow an order on the battlefield, as well as give them. But seeing as I am an intelligent human being I would probably try the diplomatic approach first.

        Comment


        • #34
          Just had another look at the letter:

          The "DF Imagery" letter from the then COS is a lawful order end of!

          PDF are subject to military law at all times, RDF are not.

          All images must be sanctioned by DF Press Officer. The COS ordered that appropriate action be taken in cases where the DF isn't protrayed in a good light.

          I know that my units unoffical website was been taken down at times (before this letter was sent out) and the webmaster was told to remove specific photos (all the photos I ever saw portrayed the DF in a positive light, the reason was security issues).

          I'm not the webmaster by the way but he used to frequent IMO.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by DeV View Post
            PDF are subject to military law at all times, RDF are not.
            .
            So if you post images at a time you are not subject to military law you are not disobeying an order, are you?
            Without supplies no army is brave.

            —Frederick the Great,

            Instructions to his Generals, 1747

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Mayday View Post
              Well if you can point it out to me in the DFRs whereby it is illegal to have a photograph of yourself in uiniform and so on, then point it out to me.
              I am sure that fireplaces up and down the country will be swept aside
              Illegal to have it published.

              It is not in a DFR - it is a directive issued by COS in 2007.

              There is also another directive stating that that personnel must wear proper uniform at all time ESPECIALLY when in the public eye.

              See attached
              Attached Files
              Docman
              Closed Account
              Last edited by Docman; 19 March 2009, 23:46.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Mayday View Post
                Well if you can point it out to me in the DFRs whereby it is illegal to have a photograph of yourself in uiniform and so on, then point it out to me....
                DFR R5 Paragraphs 64 (a), (b)

                Personal publicity - Prohibition Of

                64

                (a)

                Members are forbidden to seek personal publicity in any way in connection with their
                service in the Defence Forces.

                (b)

                Members shall not supply for publication, other than through official channels,
                photographs or particulars connected with their personal services in the Defence
                Forces


                Originally posted by Luchi
                So if you post images at a time you are not subject to military law
                you are not disobeying an order, are you?
                You'll always manage to find a live grenade in a box of drill ones, won't you ???
                Truck Driver
                Captain
                Last edited by Truck Driver; 20 March 2009, 06:50.
                "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Docman View Post

                  There is also another directive stating that that personnel must wear proper uniform at all time ESPECIALLY when in the public eye.
                  Which brings us nicely around to St. Patricks Day and apres parade
                  "Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here...this is the War Room!"

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    P.S. I would follow an order on the battlefield, as well as give them. But seeing as I am an intelligent human being I would probably try the diplomatic approach first.
                    With regards orders you don't get a choice on or off of the battlefield, unless, its an order contrary to the general Rules of War or conflicts with the Geneva Convention.

                    The decision with regards the use of an internet site being beneficial or not as a recruiting tool is up to the Department of Defence and not up to Joe Soap on the WWW net.

                    As with anything connected to a countries Military and Security Forces, it has to be supervised for security reasons.

                    Connaught Stranger.
                    Connaught Stranger
                    Lt Colonel
                    Last edited by Connaught Stranger; 20 March 2009, 09:00.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      With regards orders you don't get a choice on or off of the battlefield, unless, its an order contrary to the general Rules of War or conflicts with the Geneva Convention
                      100% spot on

                      I think thats the problem with todays youth they pick and choose what rules and laws they like
                      Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                      Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                      The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                      The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                      The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                      Are full of passionate intensity.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Ok...I will hold my hand up

                        But the original posting wasn't about DFRs and COS and so on. I want to draw a line under that.

                        The question asked was whether or not a bebo page, and mallen83 gave the example of 3AD, has any benefit as a recruitment tool if it is done correctly.
                        Nothing to do with DFRs and COS and so on.

                        The promotion of the RDF from the DF press office is practically non-existant. And what is done is not good enough. That is an indisputible fact!

                        What mallen83 asked was whether or not they can work as recruitment tools if done correctly. I think that if it is used correctly then it will work.
                        As with everything, you will have people abuse it or go wrong with it. But if a unit uses a bebo page and it has administration and everything about it is above board and shows professionalism, then it is a good idea. Its a good use of initiative.

                        Granted there are only a few examples of it out there, but if the press office were doing more in the way of publicity for the RDF then maybe units wouldn't have to use bebo/facebook etc. to promote their units and recruit people.

                        This is what the debate is primarily about - not DFRs but whether or not availing of such resources has any benefits for RDF units in recruiting fresh blood. Nothing else!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          [QUOTE=Truck Driver;244739]DFR R5 Paragraphs 64 (a), (b)

                          Personal publicity - Prohibition Of

                          64

                          (a)

                          Members are forbidden to seek personal publicity in any way in connection with their
                          service in the Defence Forces.

                          (b)

                          Members shall not supply for publication, other than through official channels,
                          photographs or particulars connected with their personal services in the Defence
                          Forces





                          (A) refers to using your membership of the DF to enhance your career prospects or raise your own profile as a celebrity. (sort of like a certain female officer who used to date a boxer)

                          (B) if you took this literally, then you can't even take a photograph of your passing out parade, time overseas, pics with your unit and mates etc.
                          As long as a photograph is in line with being of good standing it is allowed.

                          I think you would be very hard pressed to find a soldier (PDF/RDF) who hasn't posed for a photo in uniform that didn't have official permission.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            [QUOTE=
                            As with anything connected to a countries Military and Security Forces, it has to be supervised for security reasons.

                            Connaught Stranger.[/QUOTE]

                            I agree with you CS on that point. The thing I wish to raise is if a page is supervised, which seems to be the case in the examples I have seen, then what would be the problem. And I am sure that the people supervising it would be responsible members of their units and as such, the project as a whole would work and not be a shambles.

                            I do think that the potential is there. And I can see it.

                            I think perhaps, DFRs aside and so on, that maybe the COS should be reviewed in light of the fact that evidence is coming to light that social networking sites would appear to be on the increase.
                            But also that there are examples of it out there where it is being used properly (I admit that I don't know how successful they are, but they are free. So there is no cost incurred by the DF)

                            My question, which everyone seems to have missed, is whether or not they have any recruitment potential.

                            I have always been a fond believer in the principle that it is the people on the inside that really know how something works.
                            It is obvious that these pages (THE QUALITY ONES) are being run by dedicated members of their respective units, and maybe the DF press office should consult with them on revising the COS to accommodate for these examples.

                            Or even to issue a revised directive, because it would appear that it is something that the DF might not actually have any control over. By revised I mean stating that all photos need to show the organisation in a professional light.

                            It an exercise in common sense if you ask me.

                            I am not interested in a debate about DFRs, COS, and so on.
                            What I am asking is whether or not there exists recruitment potential for the RDF through the use of a social networking site like bebo. Other organisations/companies avail of this in recruiting for new staff/personnel, so there is evidence that it is being harnassed by the real world.

                            I think that done correctly it will work for the RDF too.

                            I think the COS is out of date. And someone mentioned the example of the forbidden text messages for ARPs earlier. These social networking sites are a means of communication also for existing members. They are effectively websites at the end of the day...and every orgainsiation has a website in this day and age. Even the DF.

                            So realistically speaking, what a social networking site is (if done correctly) is a website for a unit. What is wrong with that if it is done correctly?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              What do you exactly want May day


                              (A) refers to using your membership of the DF to enhance your career prospects or raise your own profile as a celebrity. (sort of like a certain female officer who used to date a boxer)

                              It is like all Military orders - it doesnt refer to any thing it explicity sets out

                              Members are forbidden to seek personal publicity in any way in connection with their
                              service in the Defence Forces.

                              the reference to the boxer and the other person shows how little you actually know and how much tabloids you read

                              Members shall not supply for publication, other than through official channels,
                              photographs or particulars connected with their personal services in the Defence
                              Forces
                              (B) if you took this literally, then you can't even take a photograph of your passing out parade, time overseas, pics with your unit and mates etc.
                              As long as a photograph is in line with being of good standing it is allowed.
                              Dont look at it literally or any other way
                              look at it as an order pure and simple

                              and simply obey it


                              re read the supply for publication bit


                              Mayday you have a clear choice here- you wanted to join this organisation- no one forced you into it.

                              therefore you can either

                              obey the rules

                              or get busy packing your kit

                              I dont know why this is hard for you to understand

                              its like being a member of the Defence Forces

                              its extremely easy- all you have to do is

                              exactly as your told

                              no worries adfter that
                              Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                              Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                              The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                              The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                              The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                              Are full of passionate intensity.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Of course site such as Bebo etc are potenitally excellent recruitment methods - IF they are run correctly!

                                Comment

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