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To obey or not to obey an order [split from Girl trouble]

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  • To obey or not to obey an order [split from Girl trouble]

    He was detailed to report to command hq after his duty was finished and


    so why should he have to stick around an extra hour and a half?


    Maybe because he was detailed to-


    I specifically havent commented on this because there is always 2 sides to a story
    and I wasnt there etc

    but I dont know you Tango Charlie-

    and when someone prints shite such as why should any Soldier do what he si lawfully ordered to do
    I really really have to comment.

    Whereas I dont know if this person was 100% in the right
    I know you are 100% in the wrong.


    Have a look around- see all the funny shade of green that everyone is wearing- that means we are an Army- that means we obey orders- and as long as these orders dont make us do something illegal then
    we actually have to obey the orders-

    You do of course have a choice- either obey the order- or get to fukc out of the Army I am in.


    I take it TC you are not a serving member- in fact I hope to God you arent- because if you are, then we really have problems in the direction our Defence Forces are going.
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  • #2
    Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
    Maybe because he was detailed to-


    I specifically havent commented on this because there is always 2 sides to a story
    and I wasnt there etc

    but I dont know you Tango Charlie-

    and when someone prints shite such as why should any Soldier do what he si lawfully ordered to do
    I really really have to comment.

    Whereas I dont know if this person was 100% in the right
    I know you are 100% in the wrong.


    Have a look around- see all the funny shade of green that everyone is wearing- that means we are an Army- that means we obey orders- and as long as these orders dont make us do something illegal then
    we actually have to obey the orders-

    You do of course have a choice- either obey the order- or get to fukc out of the Army I am in.


    I take it TC you are not a serving member- in fact I hope to God you arent- because if you are, then we really have problems in the direction our Defence Forces are going.
    The whole reason he was totally 100% cleared is because it was not a lawful order.

    And i will also take this opportunity to inform you hedgehog that i am a serving soldier. An expierienced NCO with an exemplary service record both at home and overseas. Thanks a million for the unnessacarily hostile welcome to the discussion board. You though are obviously not based in the curragh, if you were you would knowthat this camp warden issue has been a bone of contention for a long time, and it has finally come to head in this embarasing manner for the army. Perhaps now they will be forced to address the issue of such a seemingly pointless but actually quite a nessacary duty.

    Comment


    • #3
      He was 100% in the right. He was detailed to report to command hq after his duty was finished and he was supposed to be resting off. The camp warden duty in the curragh is from 8am until 8am the next day, so why should he have to stick around an extra hour and a half? No one in the curragh stays around for it and he was the one they tried to make a scapegoat of. And it backfired on them royally when he opted for court martial.


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      Yesterday, 15:15 #25
      hedgehog
      Serf




      Join Date: May 2003
      Location: Dublin
      Posts: 8,087 Quote:
      He was detailed to report to command hq after his duty was finished and




      Quote:
      so why should he have to stick around an extra hour and a half?



      Maybe because he was detailed to-


      I specifically havent commented on this because there is always 2 sides to a story
      and I wasnt there etc

      but I dont know you Tango Charlie-

      and when someone prints shite such as why should any Soldier do what he si lawfully ordered to do
      I really really have to comment.

      Whereas I dont know if this person was 100% in the right
      I know you are 100% in the wrong.


      Have a look around- see all the funny shade of green that everyone is wearing- that means we are an Army- that means we obey orders- and as long as these orders dont make us do something illegal then
      we actually have to obey the orders-

      You do of course have a choice- either obey the order- or get to fukc out of the Army I am in.


      I take it TC you are not a serving member- in fact I hope to God you arent- because if you are, then we really have problems in the direction our Defence Forces are going.

      I specifically said I wasnt commenting on the case because I dont know the facts nor the indiviudal
      concerned

      however when someone comes on here and states he is aa NCO and sputs pure and utter shite such as

      He was detailed to report to command hq after his duty was finished and he was supposed to be resting off ... so why should he have to stick around an extra hour and a half?
      which part of phrase the he was detailed to report is so hard for you to understand

      we are Soldiers we fecking do what we are told- when we are told- its as simple as that.

      if you dont want to obey orders- take a walk-

      Of course if he was detailed to kill every civy in Orchard park then he could legitimately claim that was an illegal order

      but
      in your examplee and I am not commenting on the trial- ybut our hypothetical person was detailed to remain in situ for an extra hour and a half-

      90 minuets- the length of a soccer match

      and he disobeyed that order- and you defend it and claim it as a great victory.

      why didnt he simply obey the order and then complain after wards- redress who ever gave the order- bring it to the Ombudsman-

      I am literally shocked that you as an experienced NCO would defend someone disobeying a lawful order


      I was going to give an example and ask you a question about it- but I am stunned by your atttitude

      I am by no means an old sweat but I have a fair bit of service both here and abroad and I thank the good Lord that I have never encountered a Soldier or an NCO like you

      if you are the future of your Unit- then your Unit has no future.

      by the way

      Welcome to the board
      Last edited by hedgehog; 25 May 2009, 14:28.
      Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
      Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
      The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
      The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
      The best lack all conviction, while the worst
      Are full of passionate intensity.

      Comment


      • #4
        I’m not a member of the PDF


        but one thing I know for sure about them is that they guard their free time very carefully. Having to give up 90 mins of his rest period just to wait for some clerk to start work is amazing,

        the point is- if your detailed to wait- then you wait

        as I said I am not commenting on the COurt Martial- just TC's nonsense

        an order is an order- like it or lump it

        thats what seperates us from the civies
        Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
        Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
        The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
        The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
        The best lack all conviction, while the worst
        Are full of passionate intensity.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
          which part of phrase the he was detailed to report is so hard for you to understand

          we are Soldiers we fecking do what we are told- when we are told- its as simple as that.

          if you dont want to obey orders- take a walk-
          90 minuets- the length of a soccer match
          Hedgie, as someone who served in the brugha for more than 10 years, I am familiar with the do what your told attitude, regardless. I even played along without complaint, but after moving out of the big smoke I saw a very different attitude.

          People are much more likely to stand up for their rights, to the letter of the law, so 24hrs on 24 off, straight away, no waiting just because the powers that be can't be bothered having someone available to receive your report at 0800hrs, although there must be an orderly Sgt somewhere in the camp that could take it.

          You might not like but that's the way things are going, everyone receiving instruction on the letter of the law before they even properly start training!
          And I agree it's not for the best but I feel you were a bit strong with TC
          CRIME SCENE INSTIGATOR

          Comment


          • #6
            the do what your told attitude
            Us Soldiers call it obeying orders


            I even played along without complaint,
            well done- but in reality you mean you as a Soldier obeyed orders-


            the way this thread is going scares me

            People are much more likely to stand up for their rights, to the letter of the law,
            What Soldiers do is obey the order and if its a shite order they complain after wards - by either redressing the person etc etc

            we dont pick and choose what orders we obey

            your thinking of Ikea


            but I feel you were a bit strong with TC
            Why so

            I refuse to beleive that any NCO and I mean ANY NCO would have an attitude like that

            TC is a 12 year old young lad who is trying to get me going

            what NCO who claims he served overseas as an NCO would have an attidue like that

            this has to be a joke
            Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
            Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
            The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
            The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
            The best lack all conviction, while the worst
            Are full of passionate intensity.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
              Us Soldiers call it obeying orders




              well done- but in reality you mean you as a Soldier obeyed orders-


              the way this thread is going scares me



              What Soldiers do is obey the order and if its a shite order they complain after wards - by either redressing the person etc etc

              we dont pick and choose what orders we obey


              your thinking of Ikea




              Why so

              I refuse to beleive that any NCO and I mean ANY NCO would have an attitude like that

              TC is a 12 year old young lad who is trying to get me going

              what NCO who claims he served overseas as an NCO would have an attidue like that

              this has to be a joke
              By God you make it hard to agree with you, but like it or lump it, the new soft landing concept with recruits has led to a situation where they feel they have the right to question those orders, and that is where you will see the difference between the older soldier and the new breed.


              What Soldiers do is obey the order and if its a shite order they complain after wards - by either redressing the person etc etc



              We recognise that something has to be done and do it(while bitching and moaning as is a soldiers right), the new breed bitch and moan and try to avoid the job at all costs, using the rules in ways that are far beyond what was intended. This also makes it very hard to even complete the recruit training, as the training staff are left walking on eggshells, I know you'll understand what I'm talking about seeing as the BTD(East) is on your doorstep

              well done- but in reality you mean you as a Soldier obeyed orders- Thanks very much but I wasn't looking for your approval, merely pointing out that I understand where your coming from
              CRIME SCENE INSTIGATOR

              Comment


              • #8
                By God you make it hard to agree with you
                Are you my wife by any chance

                I really feel strongly on this issue


                the new soft landing concept with recruits has led to a situation where they feel they have the right to question those orders, and that is where you will see the difference between the older soldier and the new breed
                Since when do recruits or young soldiers set the standard

                It is up to us as NCO's to impose order and we do that by amongst other things - example

                so for a supposed NCO to come on here and say they agree with a Pte disobeying an order.


                the simple matter is- unless it something like blatantly unlawful0 then their is no choice- obey and then complain

                we have the mechanism to complain

                but ther eis no mechanism to disobey
                Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                Are full of passionate intensity.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks very much but I wasn't looking for your approval, merely pointing out that I understand where your coming from

                  I take it your ex PDF
                  Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                  Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                  The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                  The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                  The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                  Are full of passionate intensity.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
                    I take it your ex PDF
                    Less of the Ex thank you very much!!
                    CRIME SCENE INSTIGATOR

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by REX View Post
                      Less of the Ex thank you very much!!
                      well your not in the Brugha anymore

                      so you have to be ex Army
                      Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                      Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                      The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                      The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                      The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                      Are full of passionate intensity.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
                        well your not in the Brugha anymore

                        so you have to be ex Army
                        D'oh!!
                        CRIME SCENE INSTIGATOR

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          we have all done things that we thought were stupid and unneccessary

                          but we aare Soldiers and we followed orders

                          cribbed afterwards though
                          Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                          Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                          The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                          The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                          The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                          Are full of passionate intensity.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
                            cribbed afterwards though
                            Whinge, moan, or do your best to get out of it.
                            Lifes a bitch, so be her pimp!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I don't thank that the majoity have problems obeying legal orders and a military organisation is based on this concept and order would fail if this didn't exist.

                              the problem a rises in vthe failure to carry out the order this is where the system breaks down.
                              but there has to be more latitude given to those who transgress. the CC should have more flexibilty in how a charge is dealt with.

                              the ombudsman is there in the event of CM failing to reach a verdict or pass senntce which which fits the crime.

                              abandoning his post and going awol, after chasing sheep hardly equates to going absent from guard.

                              the circumatances of the offence should be taken into consideration and a sentce more fitting and evena reduction of the charge would possibly led to a less serious charge.

                              The book is full of charges and their punishments but leaves no leeway for those enforcing the book to interptret the charge and adjust it accordingly to the circumstances and thus often leave no leeway to work around the offense in a less serious matter,


                              Yes itis a serious business but sometimes the offences are dealt with under some very draconian laws with fixed penalties thus having to allow the defendant to go all the way. Time to review the Dfrs and bring them into the 21st century.
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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