To obey or not to obey an order [split from Girl trouble]

[hedgehog]

He was detailed to report to command hq after his duty was finished and

so why should he have to stick around an extra hour and a half?

Maybe because he was detailed to-


I specifically havent commented on this because there is always 2 sides to a story
and I wasnt there etc

but I dont know you Tango Charlie-

and when someone prints shite such as why should any Soldier do what he si lawfully ordered to do
I really really have to comment.

Whereas I dont know if this person was 100% in the right
I know you are 100% in the wrong.


Have a look around- see all the funny shade of green that everyone is wearing- that means we are an Army- that means we obey orders- and as long as these orders dont make us do something illegal then
we actually have to obey the orders-

You do of course have a choice- either obey the order- or get to fukc out of the Army I am in.


I take it TC you are not a serving member- in fact I hope to God you arent- because if you are, then we really have problems in the direction our Defence Forces are going.

[Tango_Charlie]

Maybe because he was detailed to-


I specifically havent commented on this because there is always 2 sides to a story
and I wasnt there etc

but I dont know you Tango Charlie-

and when someone prints shite such as why should any Soldier do what he si lawfully ordered to do
I really really have to comment.

Whereas I dont know if this person was 100% in the right
I know you are 100% in the wrong.


Have a look around- see all the funny shade of green that everyone is wearing- that means we are an Army- that means we obey orders- and as long as these orders dont make us do something illegal then
we actually have to obey the orders-

You do of course have a choice- either obey the order- or get to fukc out of the Army I am in.


I take it TC you are not a serving member- in fact I hope to God you arent- because if you are, then we really have problems in the direction our Defence Forces are going.

The whole reason he was totally 100% cleared is because it was not a lawful order.

And i will also take this opportunity to inform you hedgehog that i am a serving soldier. An expierienced NCO with an exemplary service record both at home and overseas. Thanks a million for the unnessacarily hostile welcome to the discussion board. You though are obviously not based in the curragh, if you were you would knowthat this camp warden issue has been a bone of contention for a long time, and it has finally come to head in this embarasing manner for the army. Perhaps now they will be forced to address the issue of such a seemingly pointless but actually quite a nessacary duty.

[hedgehog]

He was 100% in the right. He was detailed to report to command hq after his duty was finished and he was supposed to be resting off. The camp warden duty in the curragh is from 8am until 8am the next day, so why should he have to stick around an extra hour and a half? No one in the curragh stays around for it and he was the one they tried to make a scapegoat of. And it backfired on them royally when he opted for court martial.


Tango_Charlie
View Public Profile
Send a private message to Tango_Charlie
Find More Posts by Tango_Charlie
Add Tango_Charlie to Your Contacts

Yesterday, 15:15 #25
hedgehog
Serf




Join Date: May 2003
Location: Dublin
Posts: 8,087 Quote:
He was detailed to report to command hq after his duty was finished and




Quote:
so why should he have to stick around an extra hour and a half?



Maybe because he was detailed to-


I specifically havent commented on this because there is always 2 sides to a story
and I wasnt there etc

but I dont know you Tango Charlie-

and when someone prints shite such as why should any Soldier do what he si lawfully ordered to do
I really really have to comment.

Whereas I dont know if this person was 100% in the right
I know you are 100% in the wrong.


Have a look around- see all the funny shade of green that everyone is wearing- that means we are an Army- that means we obey orders- and as long as these orders dont make us do something illegal then
we actually have to obey the orders-

You do of course have a choice- either obey the order- or get to fukc out of the Army I am in.


I take it TC you are not a serving member- in fact I hope to God you arent- because if you are, then we really have problems in the direction our Defence Forces are going.

I specifically said I wasnt commenting on the case because I dont know the facts nor the indiviudal
concerned

however when someone comes on here and states he is aa NCO and sputs pure and utter shite such as

He was detailed to report to command hq after his duty was finished and he was supposed to be resting off ... so why should he have to stick around an extra hour and a half?

which part of phrase the he was detailed to report is so hard for you to understand

we are Soldiers we fecking do what we are told- when we are told- its as simple as that.

if you dont want to obey orders- take a walk-

Of course if he was detailed to kill every civy in Orchard park then he could legitimately claim that was an illegal order

but
in your examplee and I am not commenting on the trial- ybut our hypothetical person was detailed to remain in situ for an extra hour and a half-

90 minuets- the length of a soccer match

and he disobeyed that order- and you defend it and claim it as a great victory.

why didnt he simply obey the order and then complain after wards- redress who ever gave the order- bring it to the Ombudsman-

I am literally shocked that you as an experienced NCO would defend someone disobeying a lawful order


I was going to give an example and ask you a question about it- but I am stunned by your atttitude

I am by no means an old sweat but I have a fair bit of service both here and abroad and I thank the good Lord that I have never encountered a Soldier or an NCO like you

if you are the future of your Unit- then your Unit has no future.

by the way

Welcome to the board

[hedgehog]

I’m not a member of the PDF

but one thing I know for sure about them is that they guard their free time very carefully. Having to give up 90 mins of his rest period just to wait for some clerk to start work is amazing,

the point is- if your detailed to wait- then you wait

as I said I am not commenting on the COurt Martial- just TC's nonsense

an order is an order- like it or lump it

thats what seperates us from the civies

[REX]

which part of phrase the he was detailed to report is so hard for you to understand

we are Soldiers we fecking do what we are told- when we are told- its as simple as that.

if you dont want to obey orders- take a walk-
90 minuets- the length of a soccer match

Hedgie, as someone who served in the brugha for more than 10 years, I am familiar with the do what your told attitude, regardless. I even played along without complaint, but after moving out of the big smoke I saw a very different attitude.

People are much more likely to stand up for their rights, to the letter of the law, so 24hrs on 24 off, straight away, no waiting just because the powers that be can't be bothered having someone available to receive your report at 0800hrs, although there must be an orderly Sgt somewhere in the camp that could take it.

You might not like but that's the way things are going, everyone receiving instruction on the letter of the law before they even properly start training!
And I agree it's not for the best but I feel you were a bit strong with TC

[hedgehog]

the do what your told attitude

Us Soldiers call it obeying orders

I even played along without complaint,

well done- but in reality you mean you as a Soldier obeyed orders-


the way this thread is going scares me

People are much more likely to stand up for their rights, to the letter of the law,

What Soldiers do is obey the order and if its a shite order they complain after wards - by either redressing the person etc etc

we dont pick and choose what orders we obey

your thinking of Ikea

but I feel you were a bit strong with TC

Why so

I refuse to beleive that any NCO and I mean ANY NCO would have an attitude like that

TC is a 12 year old young lad who is trying to get me going

what NCO who claims he served overseas as an NCO would have an attidue like that

this has to be a joke

[REX]

Us Soldiers call it obeying orders




well done- but in reality you mean you as a Soldier obeyed orders-


the way this thread is going scares me



What Soldiers do is obey the order and if its a shite order they complain after wards - by either redressing the person etc etc

we dont pick and choose what orders we obey

your thinking of Ikea




Why so

I refuse to beleive that any NCO and I mean ANY NCO would have an attitude like that

TC is a 12 year old young lad who is trying to get me going

what NCO who claims he served overseas as an NCO would have an attidue like that

this has to be a joke

By God you make it hard to agree with you, but like it or lump it, the new soft landing concept with recruits has led to a situation where they feel they have the right to question those orders, and that is where you will see the difference between the older soldier and the new breed.


What Soldiers do is obey the order and if its a shite order they complain after wards - by either redressing the person etc etc


We recognise that something has to be done and do it(while bitching and moaning as is a soldiers right), the new breed bitch and moan and try to avoid the job at all costs, using the rules in ways that are far beyond what was intended. This also makes it very hard to even complete the recruit training, as the training staff are left walking on eggshells, I know you'll understand what I'm talking about seeing as the BTD(East) is on your doorstep

well done- but in reality you mean you as a Soldier obeyed orders- Thanks very much but I wasn't looking for your approval, merely pointing out that I understand where your coming from

[hedgehog]

By God you make it hard to agree with you

Are you my wife by any chance

I really feel strongly on this issue

the new soft landing concept with recruits has led to a situation where they feel they have the right to question those orders, and that is where you will see the difference between the older soldier and the new breed

Since when do recruits or young soldiers set the standard

It is up to us as NCO's to impose order and we do that by amongst other things - example

so for a supposed NCO to come on here and say they agree with a Pte disobeying an order.


the simple matter is- unless it something like blatantly unlawful0 then their is no choice- obey and then complain

we have the mechanism to complain

but ther eis no mechanism to disobey

[hedgehog]

Thanks very much but I wasn't looking for your approval, merely pointing out that I understand where your coming from

I take it your ex PDF

[REX]

I take it your ex PDF

Less of the Ex thank you very much!!

[hedgehog]

Less of the Ex thank you very much!!

well your not in the Brugha anymore

so you have to be ex Army

[REX]

well your not in the Brugha anymore

so you have to be ex Army

D'oh!!

[hedgehog]

we have all done things that we thought were stupid and unneccessary

but we aare Soldiers and we followed orders

cribbed afterwards though

[Bosco]

cribbed afterwards though

Whinge, moan, or do your best to get out of it.

[hptmurphy]

I don't thank that the majoity have problems obeying legal orders and a military organisation is based on this concept and order would fail if this didn't exist.

the problem a rises in vthe failure to carry out the order this is where the system breaks down.
but there has to be more latitude given to those who transgress. the CC should have more flexibilty in how a charge is dealt with.

the ombudsman is there in the event of CM failing to reach a verdict or pass senntce which which fits the crime.

abandoning his post and going awol, after chasing sheep hardly equates to going absent from guard.

the circumatances of the offence should be taken into consideration and a sentce more fitting and evena reduction of the charge would possibly led to a less serious charge.

The book is full of charges and their punishments but leaves no leeway for those enforcing the book to interptret the charge and adjust it accordingly to the circumstances and thus often leave no leeway to work around the offense in a less serious matter,


Yes itis a serious business but sometimes the offences are dealt with under some very draconian laws with fixed penalties thus having to allow the defendant to go all the way. Time to review the Dfrs and bring them into the 21st century.