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To obey or not to obey an order [split from Girl trouble]

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    Able
    "Lookout to Bridge"

  • Able
    replied
    Originally posted by Truck Driver View Post

    A LAWFUL order is a LAWFUL order and must be followed....
    What he said.... Thank you Truck Driver..

    "Report to the CO's office when relieved"
    “Report to the Duty Officer before going off duty”
    Or any type of request along these lines I think would be considered a "Lawful Order"

    On the other hand if the person bringing the charges screws up or just does it to cause hardship on the person been charged they should be held accountable for some type of leadership failure..

    Leave a comment:

  • Truck Driver
    Captain

  • Truck Driver
    replied
    Originally posted by Dazzler View Post
    Officer: Shoot those Villagers over there.

    Soldier: Yes Sir. *Proceeds to shoot Villagers*

    Soldier: Sir, may I ask why I had to shoot them?

    Officer: Because I ordered you to.

    I know that it should never get so extreme that this is the case, but that is effectively what you proposed.
    UNLAWFUL order....


    Originally posted by Able View Post
    An Order is an Order and must be followed....
    A LAWFUL order is a LAWFUL order and must be followed....

    Leave a comment:

  • Able
    "Lookout to Bridge"

  • Able
    replied
    Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Hmm... thats interesting , given the rest periods are at the discretion of the person who originally developed the detail.

    No excuse ,an order is an order.

    I'm all for questioning orders but only after they have been followed, this way the obligation to follow the order has been carried out and it can be clarified to recipient as to why it was issued in the first place without compromising the action required.

    Act first..ask questions later would be the better line.
    An Order is an Order and must be followed... the blatant disregard for an order carries consequences. If a member of the services on a 24hr duty receives an order during that duty period and fails to carry out that order they should be charged accordingly, whether he / she was carrying a weapon or picking mushrooms in the eff-in woods for 24hrs.
    Even the appearance of a less than strict adherence to Military law would be detrimental to orderly execution of duties and the structure and moral (low as it may be) of the DF.

    Leave a comment:

  • hptmurphy
    Commander in Chief

  • hptmurphy
    replied
    I know that it should never get so extreme that this is the case, but that is effectively what you proposed
    Once the officer can justify it should be no problem.


    Seriously though it has all changed , people now question things we may have done without question in the past. Fine..just make sure its done after the job is completed and not get in the way of the job in hand.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dazzler
    replied
    Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Hmm... thats interesting , given the rest periods are at the discretion of the person who originally developed the detail.

    No excuse ,an order is an order.

    I'm all for questioning orders but only after they have been followed, this way the obligation to follow the order has been carried out and it can be clarified to recipient as to why it was issued in the first place without compromising the action required.

    Act first..ask questions later would be the better line.
    Officer: Shoot those Villagers over there.

    Soldier: Yes Sir. *Proceeds to shoot Villagers*

    Soldier: Sir, may I ask why I had to shoot them?

    Officer: Because I ordered you to.

    I know that it should never get so extreme that this is the case, but that is effectively what you proposed.

    Leave a comment:

  • hptmurphy
    Commander in Chief

  • hptmurphy
    replied
    It makes no odds he was resting off.
    Hmm... thats interesting , given the rest periods are at the discretion of the person who originally developed the detail.

    No excuse ,an order is an order.

    I'm all for questioning orders but only after they have been followed, this way the obligation to follow the order has been carried out and it can be clarified to recipient as to why it was issued in the first place without compromising the action required.

    Act first..ask questions later would be the better line.

    Leave a comment:

  • Craghopper
    Custom User Title

  • Craghopper
    replied
    Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
    whilst I am not commeneting on the Court Martial or the individual as I was not there

    and we know that orders which are clearly illegal should be disobeyed-

    however

    I would say however that

    as a Defence Forces- there should never be a time when any member decides that sure thats ridicolous

    I am not going to obey that order-


    and to me the sheep thing is the stupidest waste of manpower in the history of the world

    but if I was detailed to do it- then I would be oing it thinking- this is a stupid waste of man power

    but I would still do it.


    Whereas you would not equate it as going absent off a Guard

    I would - in fact if someone who decide by himself what orders he will and will not obey

    how could one trust him overseas if the shit hit the fan

    If he was resting and the Blackhole was been attaked - would he stay in bed and say - give me a shout in 3 and a half hours.



    maybe I am an old fart and I subscribe to the dictum- obey all orders whether I like them or not

    it would be interesting to hear from the younger members on this one.


    without been a drama queen I think this is probably the thread that scares me most since I joined IMO

    in that if this is the prevailing attitude in the Defence Forces- then we have seriously lost it


    Sreenan you prick- this is all squarely your fault


    Mods- if SCreaming Jim Shreenan is a member I take gladly the penalty points

    As much as this kills me to say this...I agree with HH on this..If the Young Lad was detailed to report to his Orderly room/Company office well he should have carried out that order..simple as!! It makes no odds he was resting off.

    Leave a comment:


  • hedgehog
    replied
    Welcome on board. I think Hedgie said something similar about me to when I first started.
    Said is past tense

    I give everyone a chance to air their opinion- if I dont like it I tell them so

    if I consider its wrong I also tell them so

    I am however aware that every millenia I can be wrong

    and as such I do listen to people

    Leave a comment:

  • luchi
    Cut backs

  • luchi
    replied
    Originally posted by Tango_Charlie View Post
    You even at one stage went so far as to say that i was a 12 year old boy posing as a soldier and that i was only here trying to wind you up.
    Welcome on board. I think Hedgie said something similar about me to when I first started.

    Not being PDF I suppose I cannot comment on the rights and wrongs of this. I think there is no doubt that orders must be followed.

    But.

    If you are detailed to report for duty at x.00hrs and that at x.00 +24hrs you go on rest until x.0hrs+48 and then detailed to report to the office at x.00+36hrs.
    In this case both are lawful orders so which order do you obey?

    Leave a comment:

  • trellheim
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher

  • trellheim
    replied
    That is intimidation, surely ? but not really disobedience per se

    Leave a comment:

  • GoneToTheCanner
    C/S

  • GoneToTheCanner
    replied
    Hi all,
    What happens when you get ordered to buy items out of your pay? We, as apprentices in 1984, were ordered to pay for spare keys for our rooms, which had to be "sourced" through a certain NCO. Our pay was scant enough and we felt that if the State wanted keys for it's doors, it could buy it's own.We were threatened with the loss of precious time off so we paid up and redress was impossible. The same thing happened when we were ordered to buy lanyards and apprentice metalwork tool kits, which could only be "sourced" thru a certain NCO. We were afraid to speak up as the threat to be CB'd or charged was continuous and no one had the nerve to seek redress. Things like that happened all thru our apprenticeship and deprivation of leave was used as a weapon against us.
    regards
    GttC

    Leave a comment:


  • hedgehog
    replied
    the fact that i agreed with the ruling of a court martial judge?
    What ruling- were you in the COurt- do you have a copy of it to share.

    the only result from the CM is from that fictious sheet the independent and the only owrds attributable to Col are

    Colonel Anthony McCourt, the military judge, said the evidence demonstrated a clear need to review the practices and procedures for the task.
    can you show me there where the CM gives carte blanche to disobey orders you dont feel like obeying



    As I stress now and before I wasnt there I cannot comment on what I dont know



    my initial comments were you as a 12 year old NCO seem to support someone not obeying orders.
    and I stress again I was not talking about the Court Martial

    but now I am- because I feel strongly about it

    in fact its something to do with the Defence Forces and as a member I feel I should stand up for this matter

    in the wise words of a lad named Foley
    It shows you should stand up for yourself in the Defence Forces, but within good reason and judgment."

    Can I ask you this TC

    do you really want to make a poster boy out of this Soldier-



    May i ask hedgehog, is this comment directed at me by any chance?
    Sweet mountain of mourne of course it was

    as I get older I get heavier and my back gets hairier
    now for some reason age is making me more subtle- damn this ageing process

    "rage rage against the dimming light"

    Leave a comment:

  • Tango_Charlie
    C/S

  • Tango_Charlie
    replied
    Originally posted by hedgehog View Post


    Evidently NCO's have it as well
    May i ask hedgehog, is this comment directed at me by any chance? You seem to have a very dim view of me indeed. You claim to be impartial in any matter where you dont know both sides of the story. Funny then that you are so qquick to direct negative comments at me without knowing anything at all about me. You even at one stage went so far as to say that i was a 12 year old boy posing as a soldier and that i was only here trying to wind you up. You seemed also to take great offence to the fact that i agreed with the ruling of a court martial judge? An authority on some matters you may be, but a higher authority on military law than a judge, you certainly are not.

    For the record and hopefully to set you straight once and for all, I am not a 12 year old boy and i am not here specifically to annoy you. I am as i have already said an expierienced NCO', who, without being conceited or bigheaded, has a record in this army that anyone would be proud of. I am hoping that the comments on my professionalism and my attitude towards the job that i have dedicated myself to will cease.

    Leave a comment:

  • apod
    Commander in Chief

  • apod
    replied
    Evidently NCO's have it as well
    When you have poor recruits passing out who bang on about "their rights " all the time then guess what? Sooner or later some of em will become poor NCO's.I have seen this creeping in during the last five years with Ptes going on the NCO's course not because they wanted to be an NCO but because the new contracts require it!Most dont last the course but some of those that do cant decide wheter they are NCO's or Ptes!

    Leave a comment:


  • REX
    replied
    Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
    When a Recruit fukcs up

    shouting mightn't necessarily rectify the situation- sometimes a whisper is better
    some times a pat on the back works better than a kick in the arsel
    You catch more bees with honey etc. etc.
    But if the guidance route fails a good Rollicking should be an option

    Leave a comment:

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