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The tactical significance of the countryside

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  • #16
    Originally posted by SwiftandSure View Post
    UAVs are becoming a cheap(ish) disposable commodity on the battelfield these days; fitted with thermal imaging a triangle shaped mass of body warmth on the ground could be seen easily.
    You misunderstand me .... you have to have a general idea that there are enemy in an area first (ie you how the enemy are in County Wicklow isn't good enough, if you know the enemy are in the Glen then you can start looking for them).

    Yes and the likelyhood of an enemy choosing to defend a field over a town/village is remote.
    We also learn how to defend not just attack. If I was the enemy, I'm not going to allow the urban area I've been tasked with defending to be incircled, how .... by fighting in the countryside as well.

    convoy battle drills should be pivotal to DF training; because from what I understand, to get across the rural area between the usually mission critical urban areas, troops are commonly transported via convoy, which are open to ambush. Hit and run convoy contacts seem to be very popular on todays battlefield, yet no one I've spoken to in the RDF so far (I can't say anything for the PDF) has been trained, or rehearsed convoy battle drills.
    We are light infantry and all personnel are trained as riflemen first. The PDF definitely learn it, RDF transport may do it?!

    On exercise recently we were transported in convoy, when I asked during the mission brief what were the "actions on" En contact en route to RV1, I was greeted with blank stares.
    Its friendly terroritry

    Generally on RDF exercises you either do a route march into enemy terrority or the DOP is short of the FLOT (it is unlikely you will be hit up on transport for safety reasons).

    I would say that convoy drills are as important as foot patroling in today's military.
    Rest assured they would be covered by those going overseas.

    It's just not possible in the present climate to train and equip the RDF to the same standard as the PDF. Surely the best solution would be to make sure the RDF are strong on the fundamentals of basic fieldcraft and OBUA with a focus on defence, then should the unlikely need arise to deploy them, a 3 month predeployment training package should get them up to speed.
    The RDF will not be going overseas anytime soon, we are fighting for our survival as an organisation at home!

    Comment


    • #17
      SwiftandSure, You may just have a bit too much training for the RDF. Most lads wouldn't even think of that stuff.
      I probably am wrong, sorry about that!!!

      Please PM me to correct me.

      But, not if I state an opinion, only if I state something as truth!!!

      I have bad opinions but I stick by them!!!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Dazzler View Post
        SwiftandSure, You may just have a bit too much training for the RDF. Most lads wouldn't even think of that stuff.
        No harm in someone starting to bring up the standard somewhere.

        Swift and Sure, hurry up and get your stripes and make an impact wherever
        you can, it's welcome and needed
        "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Dazzler View Post
          SwiftandSure, You may just have a bit too much training for the RDF. Most lads wouldn't even think of that stuff.
          Speak for your self. It's called self pride and professionalism
          "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

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          • #20
            I think he's right Zulu - it wouldn't cross the minds of most reservists that they may be hit up in a vehicle. Besides, everyone knows the Fantasian forces are scared of trucks, which is why they are always in 2-3 man OP's without support weapons...
            "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by concussion View Post
              I think he's right Zulu - it wouldn't cross the minds of most reservists that they may be hit up in a vehicle. Besides, everyone knows the Fantasian forces are scared of trucks, which is why they are always in 2-3 man OP's without support weapons...
              "Most" reservists need have a big mugachino of self pride in their work.

              I haven't encounterd Fantasian Forces in years. For the past while Genforian forces armed with RPG's, IED's, BMP1 and 2 and 30mm have been our foes. Which means we actually have to work for our money!!!
              "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

              Comment


              • #22
                I agree 100%, but if those leading them have a very narrow tactical view, what hope do the rest have?
                "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by ZULU View Post
                  ....For the past while Genforian forces armed with RPG's, IED's, BMP1 and 2 and 30mm have been our foes.....
                  God damn GenForce !!!
                  "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Learn to walk before you learn to run.

                    Tpt learn about covoy defence but it should not be necessary as a Log convoy generally does not travel in a hostile area.

                    If you were to be doing your excercise properly you would be transported by LSB to about 10K from the Ex. That is you are transported to the area where contact is not likely. You drop any non essential kit and this point. Then you travel by APC for the next 5k through the area of possible contact. When you reach the area of likely contact you move tactically on foot to the area of iminent contact.

                    This is the way it should be done.

                    Learn hoe to do it properly in a field first!!!!!
                    Without supplies no army is brave.

                    —Frederick the Great,

                    Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by DeV View Post
                      We also learn how to defend not just attack. If I was the enemy, I'm not going to allow the urban area I've been tasked with defending to be incircled, how .... by fighting in the countryside as well.

                      We are light infantry and all personnel are trained as riflemen first. The PDF definitely learn it, RDF transport may do it?!
                      Yes, but surely if you're out in entrenched positions out in the country, and you're likely to be overrun, you'll likely want to withdraw and consolidate in the urban area that you're defending. As light infantry as well, urban areas would be your best defence against mechanised or armoured units.

                      Its friendly terroritry
                      No excuse for not having Action On drills, even if it is just SOP. But I see you point.


                      The RDF will not be going overseas anytime soon, we are fighting for our survival as an organisation at home!
                      It's a shame on both accounts.

                      Originally posted by Truck Driver View Post
                      No harm in someone starting to bring up the standard somewhere.

                      Swift and Sure, hurry up and get your stripes and make an impact wherever
                      you can, it's welcome and needed
                      Originally posted by ZULU View Post
                      Speak for your self. It's called self pride and professionalism
                      Originally posted by Dazzler View Post
                      SwiftandSure, You may just have a bit too much training for the RDF. Most lads wouldn't even think of that stuff.
                      Cheers lads, I probably won't be looking to do a Pots course anytime within the next 2 years, with the lack of mandays and getting married next year, it looks like I won't be getting away much with the RDF, so I'd want to spend what time I can getting up to scratch with the SINCGAR and driving courses, because I'm probably more use to my unit as a signaller.

                      Originally posted by luchi View Post
                      Learn to walk before you learn to run.

                      Tpt learn about covoy defence but it should not be necessary as a Log convoy generally does not travel in a hostile area.

                      If you were to be doing your excercise properly you would be transported by LSB to about 10K from the Ex. That is you are transported to the area where contact is not likely. You drop any non essential kit and this point. Then you travel by APC for the next 5k through the area of possible contact. When you reach the area of likely contact you move tactically on foot to the area of iminent contact.

                      This is the way it should be done.

                      Learn hoe to do it properly in a field first!!!!!
                      Not disagreeing with you Luchi. You're right in fact; but again, I'd ask, if the area of iminent contact is in a city centre, what good is a focus on greenfield training going to achieve other than casualties?

                      I think greenfield training is important! But I would say it's a basic requirement in todays operational theatres. For RDF purposes I think it should be taught up to 3* level, and once you're a 3* the training should very much be solely OBUA focused.
                      Let's be honest, it's more likely that the RDF would be called upon to quell a civil uprising/coup than it would be to go overseas (although both scenarios are unlikely); but if that were to happen, the theatre will more than likely be urban, and at present the RDF are unprepared to operate in that terrain.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by SwiftandSure View Post
                        No excuse for not having Action On drills, even if it is just SOP.
                        But infact you do have SOPs.

                        For you , a 3*, travelling in a Logs convoy in frendly terratory either unarmed or carrying a weapon and blanks, the SOP is simple.

                        If the convoy is hit up keep yor head down and let security party deal with the situation.

                        Convoy and security ICs are the only ones that need to brief their personnel further.

                        ................getting married next year,
                        ah so thats you finished then?????????????

                        I'd ask, if the area of iminent contact is in a city centre, what good is a focus on greenfield training going to achieve other than casualties?
                        It teaches the basics. Basics that many are unable to grasp. Basics that many think the know but, when it comes down to it, are so under utillised and practiced that it is found are not actually understood at all.

                        There was one recruit I was training some years ago could not get to grips with the "clock" method of target identification. (please no jokes about digital watches)

                        Let's be honest, it's more likely that the RDF would be called upon to quell a civil uprising/coup than it would be to go overseas (although both scenarios are unlikely);
                        If FF continue the way they are.........................................

                        Seriously though there is nothing learned in the greenfield that is not applicable in the urban area.
                        Without supplies no army is brave.

                        —Frederick the Great,

                        Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by luchi View Post
                          But infact you do have SOPs.

                          For you , a 3*, travelling in a Logs convoy in frendly terratory either unarmed or carrying a weapon and blanks, the SOP is simple.

                          If the convoy is hit up keep yor head down and let security party deal with the situation.

                          Convoy and security ICs are the only ones that need to brief their personnel further.
                          This isn't in relation to eg a weapons escort. It is eg you are on TCV going towards Stranhely and the "enemy" hits you up enroute.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by SwiftandSure View Post
                            Yes, but surely if you're out in entrenched positions out in the country, and you're likely to be overrun, you'll likely want to withdraw and consolidate in the urban area that you're defending. As light infantry as well, urban areas would be your best defence against mechanised or armoured units.
                            Thats why you don't stay in the entrenched positions - fighting patrols, give them a bloody nose & slow them down, withdraw.

                            A lot of the Irish countryside wouldn't be suitable for armour.

                            Also, very importantly unless you are talking about the area north of Shankill, Co.Dublin and south of Dublin Airport (of there abouts), if you confine yourself to urban areas your line of communications will be extremely quickly cut and you will die.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by DeV View Post
                              This isn't in relation to eg a weapons escort. It is eg you are on TCV going towards Stranhely and the "enemy" hits you up enroute.
                              This is not in relation to any specific situation.

                              In the convoy situation on "Friendly Ground" You, a driver, NCO or Officer, will not have the same SOP requirements as the lower ranks.

                              My point was that different situations have different SOPs and thgose SOPs have different tasks for different people.

                              There are numberous text books available on the web that outline various convoy reactions to ambush situations.
                              The first drivers reaction is to attempt to get you and your vehicle out of harms way.
                              The first reaction for the passengers is if possible give covering fire but if thats not possible they should lie flat to reduce risk of being shot.

                              Life gets complicated after that!!!!
                              Without supplies no army is brave.

                              —Frederick the Great,

                              Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by luchi View Post
                                But infact you do have SOPs.
                                My point was that different situations have different SOPs and thgose SOPs have different tasks for different people.
                                Unfortunately, we weren't briefed or rehearsed the Tpt SOPs on the exercise I was on; I saw this as a flaw in the training. I'm aware of convoy and de-bus drills etc, but I rasied the question anyway so that the lesser experienced members of the section could get an idea of what's happening during the brief.

                                ah so thats you finished then?????????????
                                Probably :redface:


                                It teaches the basics. Basics that many are unable to grasp. Basics that many think the know but, when it comes down to it, are so under utillised and practiced that it is found are not actually understood at all.

                                There was one recruit I was training some years ago could not get to grips with the "clock" method of target identification. (please no jokes about digital watches)
                                Seriously though there is nothing learned in the greenfield that is not applicable in the urban area.
                                Actually I'd argue the opposite, I'd argue that there's nothing learned in an urban environment that is not applicable in the greenfield environment. But in Greenfield Ops, there's little in the way of CQB, Patrolling in an urban environment is almost a different discipline to that of a greenfield environment; interaction with civilians is more likely in urban areas also.

                                I think the overwhelming problem really is not so much the training syllabus, but the lack of facilities. I'm sure that the powers that be would much prefer the whole DF to be OBUA experts. Although there probably aren't enough viable FIBUA villages in Ireland to bring the RDF up to speed with OBUA.
                                In fact, I've just devised a GENIUS plan to help generate some income for the country as well as bring the DF up to speed with OBUA! It's just hit me like a diamond bullet through the brain! Once NAMA has seized all the banks' assets, it should look for all the empty housing estates that are causing grief in the economy and hand them over to the DF, who will in turn will transform them into mini FIBUA villages! Then, as well as using these FIBUA villages for ourselves we'll rent them out to the Yanks and whoever else wants to play in them for millions! Job done!

                                Originally posted by DeV View Post
                                Thats why you don't stay in the entrenched positions - fighting patrols, give them a bloody nose & slow them down, withdraw.

                                A lot of the Irish countryside wouldn't be suitable for armour.

                                Also, very importantly unless you are talking about the area north of Shankill, Co.Dublin and south of Dublin Airport (of there abouts), if you confine yourself to urban areas your line of communications will be extremely quickly cut and you will die.
                                Like I said before, I wasn't an Infanteer in my time, I was a Brigade HQ signaller; and although I did plenty of battle camps in FIBUA villages, I wouldn't for a moment say it was my area of expertise. I'm merely making observations, and presenting what I would consider to be logical solutions.
                                I agree fighting patrols probably are preferable over entrenched positions, we do after all live and operate in an age of manoeuvre warfare and so static dug in positions aren't necessarily the best option. Ideally I guess you'd be running and gunning around the countryside in something akin to the BA's Jackal, fully bombed up! That'll slow most En advances down.
                                As for comms in Dublin, I'm not abreast of what the DF's comms infrastructure is; or what capabilities it has, but I'd like to think that in a tactical emergency, providing you could at least get to a roof top, you can establish comms from anywhere in Dublin to somewhere else in Dublin with the facility to rebroadcast beyond to as far as Cork. I did witness however the Marconi PRR losing comms with one another at a distance of 200m with only a very small hill between them.
                                I'd say it's not an uncommon problem with most PRRs in other armies though.

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