Irish troops may be asked to serve in Afghanistan

[Craghopper]

Although I cannot see this happening, (Political decision )Unfortunately, What is the general consensus?

We have already a small detachment in Kabul, So we wouldn't be going in blind.

I also think that it would be an excuse to purchase more equipment (PEQ-4's/More NVE/) for example..

I think the Day of using the Neutrality Card is over..Most if not all other "Neutral Countries in Europe contribute Land Forces...

[Hello Alaska]

I really do hope we get to go, it'd be a great mission for us.

Can't see it happening though.

[ropebag]

Afghanistan would be a fantastic mission for the Irish Army, ditch all the 'two men and a dog' missions and send a full infantry battlegroup to the relatively peaceful north-west: consolidate, get everyone up to speed (especially the bloody AC) and then send platoons and individual officers down to the south - Helmand, Kandahar etc... on attachment to US/Canadian/UK/Dutch units to give the Army a shot in the arm of high-intensity warfare experience, bring it back to the rest of the Army and revitalise doctrine, leadership, training and equipment - and then down the line you could get to the stage where the Army had the ability to operate in that level of combat.

of course it won't happen, it would take money away from the 'parish pump' politics that Irish political parties depend on for votes, it might entail casualties, it would require decisions that - shock horror - might be unpopular with shinners, crusties and other forms of pond-life, and it would shatter the politically confortable post-independence concensus on foreign policy, ie: that the Irish state doesn't need one.

[Hello Alaska]

Afghanistan would be a fantastic mission for the Irish Army, ditch all the 'two men and a dog' missions and send a full infantry battlegroup to the relatively peaceful north-west: consolidate, get everyone up to speed (especially the bloody AC) and then send platoons and individual officers down to the south - Helmand, Kandahar etc... on attachment to US/Canadian/UK/Dutch units to give the Army a shot in the arm of high-intensity warfare experience, bring it back to the rest of the Army and revitalise doctrine, leadership, training and equipment - and then down the line you could get to the stage where the Army had the ability to operate in that level of combat.

of course it won't happen, it would take money away from the 'parish pump' politics that Irish political parties depend on for votes, it might entail casualties, it would require decisions that - shock horror - might be unpopular with shinners, crusties and other forms of pond-life, and it would shatter the politically confortable post-independence concensus on foreign policy, ie: that the Irish state doesn't need one.

You just hit the nail on the head there mate.

It would be a great mission though, give us a chance to get a really busy mission with a high op-tempo and working with worlds top militaries. We could easily get lads from the Brits and the Yanks over to help us with the form up for any troops heading over and of course working in a multi-national force of that size would help us when it comes to making sure we have CAS, armour support, proper logs setup etc.

But the Government will continue to babysit us as usual, which is a kick in the mouth altogether.

[RoyalGreenJacket]

Would be great to have you guys on board - but I don't believe you would get by with an Infantry Battalion made up of 'volunteers' as has previously been the case in the Irish Defence Forces.

You need dedicated formation fighting units right down to section level - lads that have been together from day 1 of basic training and throughout their career. People who you can almost instinctively tell what there next action will be when the rounds start flying.

Yes it could be re-enforced by the RDF (just as we have TA units attached to us) but again these are dedicated units so for example - the 3rd Infantry Battle Group in it's entirety (instead of some mix'n'match specially formed Battalion like the 98th Overseas Battalion or something) - made up of the whole Battalion and it's support arms plus perhaps 3 formed Platoons taken from the RDF to complete the fighting force.

In the British Infantry Battalions currently deployed in Afghanistan - the lads have lived, been drunk, been in the same sh|t and even died with each other since training and that's the way it has always been. It forms a strong bond that makes soldiers go that extra step in completing the mission and supporting each other. In high intensity combat operations this is one of the keys to mission success.

Afghanistan is no peace-keeping mission - it's 'in your face' dirty combat from the moment you get off that Chinook in Helmand.

[Come-quickly]

We should send Pana in first. To prove that their methods work.


I'm probably going to emigrate shortly, despite having a good solid job here. Because I can't bear living in a country with no real moral centre.

Peace and justice are not the same thing, nor are they necessarily complementary. Irish pacifism and neutrality which unlike other European "neutral" or non-aligned states, simply means don't rock the boat too much, because it might cost you something.

Back on topic, my belief is that we should participate in the Afghan mission because it would be the right thing to do. It would have a huge cost, financially, politically and not least to the families of the inevitable casualties.
If we are truly civilised, and aspire to be ethical or moral, and as a nation have a positive effect on the world, we should be willing to confront the atavistic forces represented by the Taliban.

Afghanistan would be a realistic place to start, because other nations with compatible values, and lest we forget the Afghan state and most of the tribal networks it hopes to supersede are already engaged in a conflict there, the resources are in place, there are committed allies to fight along, and a legitimate...painfully, deeply flawed as it is, the Afghan government is legitimate...government to support.

Our equipment is not very far off what is needed to operate there, relatively small issues like pointing devices aside, the main issue is logs support. Which is an issue wherever we go. As demonstrated by the Eufor/UN transition in Chad.

[ropebag]

Would be great to have you guys on board - but I don't believe you would get by with an Infantry Battalion made up of 'volunteers' as has previously been the case in the Irish Defence Forces.

You need dedicated formation fighting units right down to section level - lads that have been together from day 1 of basic training and throughout their career. People who you can almost instinctively tell what there next action will be when the rounds start flying.

Yes it could be re-enforced by the RDF (just as we have TA units attached to us) but again these are dedicated units so for example - the 3rd Infantry Battle Group in it's entirety (instead of some mix'n'match specially formed Battalion like the 98th Overseas Battalion or something) - made up of the whole Battalion and it's support arms plus perhaps 3 formed Platoons taken from the RDF to complete the fighting force.

agreed: bollocks to this 'volunteers' shit, if you don't fancy getting shot at, don't join a fcuking Army!

announce the mission and give anyone who doesn't fancy going their discharge papers, then use the spaces created to mobilise RDF bodies for the trip.

cut the war-dodgers and deadwood from the PDF, and massively revitalise the RDF into an organisation with a purpose with one fell swoop.

[RoyalGreenJacket]

I totally agree with you RopeBag and Alaska.

would be a fantastic stepping stone for the Irish Army - every Army needs a war to sort itself out (kit and tactics improve massively) and in all honesty it would be brilliant to have a well equipped Infantry Battle Group of fighting Irishmen along side us in Helmand.

great way to do some cross-training too and have Brits (and Yanks as you mentioned) training Irish troops in Ireland (or the UK) and you guys can pass on your experience in Peace-Keeping operations to us too.

If only....

[Dazzler]

agreed: bollocks to this 'volunteers' shit, if you don't fancy getting shot at, don't join a fcuking Army!

announce the mission and give anyone who doesn't fancy going their discharge papers, then use the spaces created to mobilise RDF bodies for the trip.

cut the war-dodgers and deadwood from the PDF, and massively revitalise the RDF into an organisation with a purpose with one fell swoop.

Baby steps ropebag, baby steps. Not a chance of the RDF ever going to Afghan.

I think the PDF should definitely go though, even if just for the major theater experience.

[Craghopper]

We should send Pana in first. To prove that their methods work.


I'm probably going to emigrate shortly, despite having a good solid job here. Because I can't bear living in a country with no real moral centre.

Peace and justice are not the same thing, nor are they necessarily complementary. Irish pacifism and neutrality which unlike other European "neutral" or non-aligned states, simply means don't rock the boat too much, because it might cost you something.

Back on topic, my belief is that we should participate in the Afghan mission because it would be the right thing to do. It would have a huge cost, financially, politically and not least to the families of the inevitable casualties.
If we are truly civilised, and aspire to be ethical or moral, and as a nation have a positive effect on the world, we should be willing to confront the atavistic forces represented by the Taliban.

Afghanistan would be a realistic place to start, because other nations with compatible values, and lest we forget the Afghan state and most of the tribal networks it hopes to supersede are already engaged in a conflict there, the resources are in place, there are committed allies to fight along, and a legitimate...painfully, deeply flawed as it is, the Afghan government is legitimate...government to support.

Our equipment is not very far off what is needed to operate there, relatively small issues like pointing devices aside, the main issue is logs support. Which is an issue wherever we go. As demonstrated by the Eufor/UN transition in Chad.

+1 Good Post..

[rod and serpent]

The ARW might go to the Stan, but I cant see the RDF going anytime soon.

[SwiftandSure]

....If only indeed! But without political will, fresh blood in the ranks, employment protection for the reserve it won't even get off the ground!
Hopefully some foreign governments like the UK and US will apply some back room pressure/incentives to get Ireland into Afghanistan, as it can only strengthen their political arguement to say to their own people that even "neutral" Ireland feels the need to intervene in Afghanistan!

[Craghopper]

agreed: bollocks to this 'volunteers' shit, if you don't fancy getting shot at, don't join a fcuking Army!

announce the mission and give anyone who doesn't fancy going their discharge papers, then use the spaces created to mobilise RDF bodies for the trip.

cut the war-dodgers and deadwood from the PDF, and massively revitalise the RDF into an organisation with a purpose with one fell swoop.

I some how doubt there will be lack of volunteers to go to A-stan..It will be the very same as the East Timor trip in 2000..

The 2nd Bn were the First Infantry Unit to take over from the Wing.. Pln strength was all that was required but it didn't stop the whole 2nd Bn going through a rigorous selection process to get selected.

[Barry]

If it did happen, unless there was a serious case of catchup played (ie sending all officers and NCOs over to the Brits to learn how to do their jobs in a warfighting situation, and having all troops do OPTAG until we can set up our own equivalent), things would most likely end badly. It would be done on the cheap (remember that the recommendation to pull out of Chad was to save money), and would be a unit cobbled together from randomers. Not the sort of setup you want to send into a warzone.

[Hello Alaska]

If it did happen, unless there was a serious case of catchup played (ie sending all officers and NCOs over to the Brits to learn how to do their jobs in a warfighting situation, and having all troops do OPTAG until we can set up our own equivalent), things would most likely end badly. It would be done on the cheap (remember that the recommendation to pull out of Chad was to save money), and would be a unit cobbled together from randomers. Not the sort of setup you want to send into a warzone.

With regards to the "randomers" part, that may not be the case.

As Craghopper already said, when the lads were over in East Timor it was individual Units sending over Platoons rather than the way it is now with Brigades taking turns putting together Battalions.