Irish troops may be asked to serve in Afghanistan

[RoyalGreenJacket]

thousands and thousands of Talibs and AQ's have been killed

thousands and thousands of western troops have been killed

and yet- every one acknowledges that extremists are getting more and more recruits

looking on the bright side of all of this too - our recruiting has never been better either as a certain individual on this forum can confirm when he applied for The Rifles and they are already fully up to strength (all 5 regular battalions). for every man that falls we have many more to take their place also.

however we always have room somewhere for high calibre highly motivated fighting Irishmen (and women), particularly while your recruiting / promotion embargo stands.

in keeping with the theme of this thread though, for the foreseeable future - joining the Brits may be the easiest way for the fine people like yourselves (Irish Troops) who serve either in the PDF or RDF to get engaged in combat in Afghanistan.

welcome aboard!

[fiannoglach]

HH, This has always been the way, no matter where we go, it's always for some agenda. The Australians sucked us into Timor for oil rights and now we're in Chad to give the EU credibility. Don't get me wrong, I'm in no hurry to go to Afghanistan with an organisation that I believe is not prepared for the realities of modern combat. But at the end of the day, I'm a professional soldier, and we'll go where we're sent.

[hedgehog]

looking on the bright side of all of this too - our recruiting has never been better either as a certain individual on this forum can confirm when he applied for The Rifles and they are already fully up to strength (all 5 regular battalions). for every man that falls we have many more to take their place also.

however we always have room somewhere for high calibre highly motivated fighting Irishmen (and women), particularly while your recruiting / promotion embargo stands.

in keeping with the theme of this thread though, for the foreseeable future - joining the Brits may be the easiest way for the fine people like yourselves (Irish Troops) who serve either in the PDF or RDF to get engaged in combat in Afghanistan.

welcome aboard!

As a lad who was there -

when will end ex be called over in Afghanistan- whats the plan

Is there an attainable goal

[RoyalGreenJacket]

Hedge - i have NOT served in Afghan yet as i'm not with my Battalion but obviously i am in comms with my best mates there every couple of days or when they are on R&R and get a good feel for what is going on and general concerns of the troops.

it's a tough one to predict but militarily we are in there for the long haul - only the politicians will hold us back / change the gameplay for us.

look what deploying to the streets of Northern Ireland ended up as!

[hptmurphy]

Maybe I am at fault here

but I stress we shouldnt use this thread as a means to have a go at the truppeny bits


or the septics. the troops that are there are there deserve our prayers and best wishes

In fairness I can't see who this could be pervcieved as having a go at the Uk armed forces aor anyone else who has been tied up in this conflict,

Hence I don't see how its anybodys fault,

Even when experience NCOs and people like Fiannoglach state that we are not ready to go to a full blown war I think it should be given full consideration,

these guys have seen the peace keeping missions and know hat our capabilities are.

they have their finger on the pulse on the PDF and know that we are quite a distance from where we should be in order to take part in actions such as these.

The army them selves have never refused a mission and have gone to places where should have taken heavier casualties, how in the hell we escaped srious casualties in places like Liberia and Chad is in deed full credit to the DF.

Only the Df and those on the ground will know hen we are ready to go and if the know how and gear is supplied you won't find the DF lacking or backing away.

My own take on the Brits is that they have been involved in every scrap since WW2 and to my mind are amongst the best in the world, the have turend out at a moments notice with ever decreasing resources due to cut backs..if we were to be integrated or even tagged along with them it could be to our benefit and we would learn so much.

I just think unless we get some serious training and equipment we are entering a war zone on the back foot.

we could operate well with the brits as apart from ancient history there has always been a fair amount of co operation.

If the rits were prepared to have us as partners and involved us in some of their training regimes things could be differnt but at present it would be lambs to the slaughter.

i'm 110% behing HH the man has some joined up thinking and I know there are plenty more of his calibre in the DF ...When he and his ilk are prepared to go withoutthe fear of their reservarions we will be ready to get involved at a level which could be fruitful.

Just rushing off to sartisfy otyer counties public out cries at this pont in time would be a fatal mistake. Give us 12 months of training required to do the job in hand at least have some else sponsor the specialist equipment you can have Irish Forces on the ground in what ever capacity but for now no..we are not ready.

in keeping with the theme of this thread though, for the foreseeable future - joining the Brits may be the easiest way for the fine people like yourselves (Irish Troops) who serve either in the PDF or RDF to get engaged in combat in Afghanistan.

I applaud these peope who go and fight with one of the most professional armies in the world but would like to see our amy having the MO to get involved themselves and remove the stigma of Irish men fighting in other armies as the could be as profficent in our own DF is the mission required and we had the equipement to do it.

To aLL those professional who opperatein wars and peace keeping missions I think you see our material witness and realise we need to up grade . I just hope some one in ranks above will take someof your reservations on board

cal tank this is your second outing and you have been amonggts the best equipped fight units in theUS army, I humbly bow to your exprience and again you are at the coal face , your suggestions are realsitic and as a serving officer would you be confident to deploy Irish soldiers to a hot war given their relative in experience, in all honest do you believe that we are immediately up to the jpb or can you see roles we could cofomrtly fit into without having to undergo specialist traing, Is our peace keeping exerince any use to you and would we have arole behind the lines.

The list paul g Submitted just isn't feasible and we all know it.

Paul just for your information a realively high proportion of the AFVs that came back from Libera are still wadied awaiting repair for low intesity ops the vehicle attrition rate wasvery high, how would we cope if the pace picked up. The workshops here are under pressure to keep vehicles for local use on the road , who will we cpe in an afghanistan scenario.


The recruitment embargo hasn't been shown in public but just take for intstancet the SGT Major in the Cav school retired last month with no replacement. the traing sergeants for the cav now number two withone of these due for retirement in the next year..we are lossing theexpeierieced instructors had over fist with no repacemnets , how in the hell are we supposed to put experieced troops on the ground when even the wealth of eperience is being lost at home without replacement.

We'll have to find a credible answer to these questions before wecan even cosider sucha amjor deployment such as this ithink we need to take deep look inward before we can even think of looking at deployment to afghaistan, we are not prepared and lack of prpardness will cause serious loss of life.

[RoyalGreenJacket]

@hptmurphy

good post pal - i think you have summarised quite well the realities that some of the experienced soldiers in here have put forward. YES it would be great to have you with us in Afghan but not NOW. i'm all for joint British / Irish training / operations as there is always great banter between us when we meet face to face in uniform.

and as an Irish 'truppeny bit' - apologies if i sometimes launch myself in here 'full frontal', but i won't tolerate cheap comments or long range sniping of the Army i loyally serve in by certain individuals at every opportunity.

[RoyalGreenJacket]

This I have wondered about. What is end game? Will Al-Qaeda collapse when Ben Leddin is captured, the head of the snake, so to speak? Is he even in Afghanistan / Pakistan?

is he even alive? who cares. lets just get Afghanistan back on it's feet for example where girls can go to school without having to watch their teacher decapitated and people can get on with normal life - when normality is restored - we will leave (i think!).

[DeV]

I just think unless we get some serious training and equipment we are entering a war zone on the back foot.

Tell that to the pro health & safety lobby and the Greens!

Paul just for your information a realively high proportion of the AFVs that came back from Libera are still wadied awaiting repair for low intesity ops the vehicle attrition rate wasvery high, how would we cope if the pace picked up. The workshops here are under pressure to keep vehicles for local use on the road , who will we cpe in an afghanistan scenario.

The could be a few different reasons for that - lack of spares, lack of qualified personnel, work practices, the conditions in Liberia were harsh on vehicles

[ias]

HPT, one point regarding maintenance of vehicles in theatre, can this not be outsourced? If I understand it correctly I believe that the Australians and I think the US do this. As far as I know the Aussie (and probably the Dutch) Bushmasters are maintained, in theatre, by Oshkosh.

IAS

[SwiftandSure]

This is more of a thinking out loud post but with politics aside.....

IF, and I mean a big IF, the PDF were to deploy to Afghanistan, and IF they were to perform similar offensive roles to that of other coalition forces; what would lads here think of the following model to get the PDF up to speed, or is this model already in place...?

Initially select and deploy a best of the best infantry platoon (unit sizes can vary, this is just an example) of PDF and attach (or even exchange them) them to a British Army (or US, but for the sake of aruement I'l stick to BA) Infantry Company. Have the PDF Platoon go through the same predeployment package as the Brits, with the Brits. As part of the initial ORBAT, break up the PDF platoon among the BA Company so that 1 section of PDF is attached to each BA platoon, with at least 1 BA mentor per PDF section. The HQ element can initially shadow the BA HQ element at Pln and Coy level.

Keep this ORBAT for the first 4 months of the tour, giving the PDF sections combat and cohesion experience within their BA platoons without compromising the combat effectiveness of the BA Coy as a whole. Once the PDF gain the experience necessary, change the ORBAT so that PDF can form up as a solely PDF platoon (maintaining their BA mentors) within the BA Coy and operate as a Pln for the reamainder of the tour.

Repeat this method 2 or 3 times and within a year to 18months the PDF will have a company strength of combat experinced troops to integrate into a Bn, and can then probably deploy independently for whatever role.

Could, or does, that model work?

[expat01]

I'm not going to weigh in to the debate regarding whether Ireland could or should meaningfully contribute to the war in Afghanistan. I would like to comment on the question of NATO nations' attitude to Ireland's neutrality, and whether Ireland 'owes' anything to either NATO or Britain.

The first thing that we have to admit is that from 1922 until the 1960s, our government treated independence as a form of Home Rule. Until we joined the UN our external affairs reached their high point with the Eucharistic Congress.
In terms of defence, we never even pretended to secure it. Why?
The Treaty explicitly left responsibility for the defence of Irish territorial waters with the Royal Navy. That original de jure position has never -de facto - changed.
Immediately after the Civil War the department of finance (which remained for many years staffed by the same civil servants that ran Ireland before independence) set about what it saw as its most important job regarding the Defence Forces: ensuring those forces would never be capable of overthrowing the government.
The army was neutered as a force in public affairs and through to the 1930s was deliberately prevented from acquiring heavy equipment, maintaining effective formations or developing any kind of realistic defence policy. This was unintentionally aided by the new class of officers who were entering the army. They were concerned that they be seen as professional officers in a force modeled as closely as possible on the British army and refused to consider guerrilla war in the case of an invasion: We would meet them with tanks and artillery, or not at all. Finance was only too happy to oblige.
We all know the history of the head-in-the-sand attitude that left us with an army of under 20,000 in September 1939 which had actually decreased by May 1940.
What is less clear to nation raised for decades on a diet of navel-gazing was the fact that Ireland did not intend to seriously resist any British invasion, rather the contrary. There were constant contacts between G2 and their British counterparts. Commando training was given in Northern Ireland to Defence Force personnel and GHQ liaised with British forces on a regular basis to plan contingencies in the case of a German invasion. Irish neutrality was guaranteed by the Allied dominance of the Atlantic ocean.

This position did not change during the Cold War. Economically, politically and socially we were not neutral and feared only the possibility of a Soviet invasion. Our neglect of defence was underwritten, as it always had been, by the assumption that we would be defended by NATO in general and Britain in particular. The NATO shield was what permitted us to spend on things other than a navy or an air force as our economy slowly dragged itself into the modern world.

Does this mean we now 'owe them' and should pony up? No, I don't think so. War is a serious business. But let us not fool ourselves. We have the defence forces we have today because we always knew someone had our back.
If we're alright with that, fine. But don't try to pretend it didn't happen and don't pretend we have some kind of a moral high ground.

[DeV]

The Treaty explicitly left responsibility for the defence of Irish territorial waters with the Royal Navy. That original de jure position has never -de facto - changed.

That changed with the handing back of the Treaty ports.

Immediately after the Civil War the department of finance (which remained for many years staffed by the same civil servants that ran Ireland before independence) set about what it saw as its most important job regarding the Defence Forces: ensuring those forces would never be capable of overthrowing the government.

It was a risk but you are correct.

What is less clear to nation raised for decades on a diet of navel-gazing was the fact that Ireland did not intend to seriously resist any British invasion, rather the contrary. There were constant contacts between G2 and their British counterparts. Commando training was given in Northern Ireland to Defence Force personnel and GHQ liaised with British forces on a regular basis to plan contingencies in the case of a German invasion. Irish neutrality was guaranteed by the Allied dominance of the Atlantic ocean.

Historical evidence disagrees with you that Ireland wouldn't seriously resist an allied invasion!

This position did not change during the Cold War. Economically, politically and socially we were not neutral and feared only the possibility of a Soviet invasion. Our neglect of defence was underwritten, as it always had been, by the assumption that we would be defended by NATO in general and Britain in particular. The NATO shield was what permitted us to spend on things other than a navy or an air force as our economy slowly dragged itself into the modern world.

Spend money on things such as Haugheys shirts! :redface:
There was no point in us joining NATO, due to mutual assured destruction we won't survive.

[Te Kaha]

The role Ireland could potentially play in the Ghan is by taking over the our Kiwi Provincial Reconstruction Company in Banyam Province. Basically a Chapter VI SASO type gig. Our lot have been there since 2003 and such a long sustained deployment has been creating problems in terms of ongoing training back home due to other commitments closer to home such as the Solomons and ET. Down here we have been getting the hard word from our former ANZUS partners to send the NZSAS back for a 4th tour which will probably happen but it means the PRC will have to come home. Unfortunately we cant do both though both operations are pretty important. If someone like Ireland could pick up the PRC role us Kiwi's would be grateful. Cheers TK

[hedgehog]

I sound like a broken record at this stage

But we should play NO part in Afghanistan whatsoever

its not our conflict- we didnt iniate it- we wont profit form it

we are not trained for it- we are not equipped for it

and once more- its feck all to do with us.

we should wish our fellow westerners well

but there is stuff to do in the world that we should be involved in.

Why in the name of God should we be cleaning up the mess Bush and Blair left.

[ZULU]

The role Ireland could potentially play in the Ghan is by taking over the our Kiwi Provincial Reconstruction Company in Banyam Province. Basically a Chapter VI SASO type gig. Our lot have been there since 2003 and such a long sustained deployment has been creating problems in terms of ongoing training back home due to other commitments closer to home such as the Solomons and ET. Down here we have been getting the hard word from our former ANZUS partners to send the NZSAS back for a 4th tour which will probably happen but it means the PRC will have to come home. Unfortunately we cant do both though both operations are pretty important. If someone like Ireland could pick up the PRC role us Kiwi's would be grateful. Cheers TK

I've been looking into this since the thread started.

Can you provide a good Organisational structure to the kiwi PRT Te Kaha? I've been trying to find one online and on your DF websites but no good sources in terms of equipmetn vehicles, CIMIC, NGO staff and roles.

Also whats the Logs support situation?

Are you using your own Hercs or are you going through Aus/US supply chain from Bagrahm