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  • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Is the DoD hamstrung by it's protection of historic structures? Is it reluctant to modify anything lest it face criticism for erasing history?
    I was reminded of this seeing the virtual tours of various state owned buildings.

    Griffith and Clancy were both absolute kips. When they were sold, lo and behold the developers were able to convert the existing structures into modern comfortable buildings. Beggars Bush, the HQ for most troops involved in dealing with the rebels in 1916, is a modern building housing the National Print museum, and in a modern building within, GSI. Dublin Castle, another relic of 1916, now houses the Revenue Commissioners amongst others. Yet they don't shiver in cells once used by the RIC. Modern office buildings stand alongside the protected structures, whose interiors have been upgraded to a modern civilised standard.
    The Garda training college was a former Army Barracks, for a long time shared with a reserve unit. As soon as the GS was able to kick the DF to a quiet corner of this "historic" building, the OPW were able to turn the standard issue army accom block, same as that seen in Collins Barracks Cork (or Dublin), Athlone, Limerick or any DF property, into Bright modern offices and single accommodation.
    The DoD seem to be afraid to gut a solid built structure and refit it, less they remove some historic toilet graffiti.
    How long did the apprentices in Naas tolerate third world conditions in Devoy, until the facility closed, and the OPW happily bulldozed the entire place, to make room for Kildare Co Council offices.

    If we removed the emotional attachment to our old buildings, could we have a better standard of accomodation? Is it time to knock the 3 and 4 story blocks built in Victorian times looking onto the parade square, and replace everything with fit for purpose offices, single accom and training rooms?
    I am thinking of one historic structure, destroyed by fire in 2007 or thereabouts in Haulbowline. Block 4 used to be a storeroom for random things, as well as offices for what became the Halpin Centre. It cannot be used for anything now, as the fire damaged the structural integrity of the limestone. A steel frame now stops it from falling down. It joins other buildings in the same place destroyed by fire, where money spent maning it safe from falling over would be better spent rebuilding something identical in size and shape on the footprint, except with modern energy efficient design, and luxuries such as hot and cold running water, functioning toilets, windows that open or close and enough electrical outlets for everyone. A modern building might not cost so much on routine maintenance either.
    It can be done. In the early 90s, the entirety of Married Quarters in Collins barracks Cork, along with what once were old stables that had been repurposed as workshops/offices were bulldozed, and replaced with a modern dining block, Gym and Base workshops. Unfortunately the Married quarters were never replaced but this was a local solution to the issue of overholders, which still blights the Curragh today.
    The DoD and the DF are not museum curators. They should not have to work in or with buildings and equipment that belong in or as a museum. It is ironic that we have such emotional attachment to buildings that the founders of the state spent so much time trying to destroy.
    If you are willing to spend the money you can gut a listed building and rebuild the inside no problem, it takes longer and is more expensive to do then a new build but it is possible, even with the Fire Gutted buildings on Haulbowline, you could even knock them down and rebuild them to look the exact same on the outside as the old building but using modern materials (if it is really necessary to do that due to planning).

    I think the problem comes down to OPW being the Property Developers for every state agency except defence, and who are part of DPER, vs DoD, who have to get the capitol budget agreed via DPER, who then want it done on the cheap, since DoD are managing the project and not themselves (OPW).

    As for the overholder issue, wasn't the OPW having the same issue with the Live-in Garda stations a number of years ago?
    It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
    It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
    It was a new age...It was the end of history.
    It was the year everything changed.

    Comment


    • I didn't hear about that, Garda houses were always given as temporary accommodation, you signed a contract to that effect. You couldn't even paint it without OPW consent.
      I have 2 friends (Gardai) who lived in them while they were in the process of moving/building.
      German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
      German 2: Private? I am a general!
      German 1: That is the bad news.

      Comment


      • It was retired Gardai overstaying their welcome, in old stations, after having been either unable to get alternative housing or having family issues that found them effectively rendered homeless. There's one near me and a fella staying on had to be evicted by serving Gardai yet the place is boarded up. The gardai were essentially looking the other way but head office got wind of it and the guy was put out. Grom is dead right, though, the DF keeps old places that should be knocked because no-one will have the cop-on to run a bulldozer through them.

        Comment


        • That is mad about Garda overholders when you consider the model that was used to provide security during the bust for the stations that were closed

          Comment


          • In fairness, the older red brick blocks have an appeal to them and it would be a shame to see them go. A lot of money has been spent on some and they provide a relatively good standard of Accomodiation but that money probably has to be spent repeatedly as the building structure probably requires work.

            It would be better VFM to build from scratch and then demolish. If you were so inclined you could reuse the brick work from the original buildings (at great expensive) ...... or just use modern red brickwork.

            I’m sure that there could even be a market for recovered old red bricks.

            Look at the SLAM Accomodiation in the U.K., but having said that some of it is apparently already approaching end of life.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
              Is the DoD hamstrung by it's protection of historic structures? Is it reluctant to modify anything lest it face criticism for erasing history?
              I was reminded of this seeing the virtual tours of various state owned buildings.

              Griffith and Clancy were both absolute kips. When they were sold, lo and behold the developers were able to convert the existing structures into modern comfortable buildings. Beggars Bush, the HQ for most troops involved in dealing with the rebels in 1916, is a modern building housing the National Print museum, and in a modern building within, GSI. Dublin Castle, another relic of 1916, now houses the Revenue Commissioners amongst others. Yet they don't shiver in cells once used by the RIC. Modern office buildings stand alongside the protected structures, whose interiors have been upgraded to a modern civilised standard.
              The Garda training college was a former Army Barracks, for a long time shared with a reserve unit. As soon as the GS was able to kick the DF to a quiet corner of this "historic" building, the OPW were able to turn the standard issue army accom block, same as that seen in Collins Barracks Cork (or Dublin), Athlone, Limerick or any DF property, into Bright modern offices and single accommodation.
              The DoD seem to be afraid to gut a solid built structure and refit it, less they remove some historic toilet graffiti.
              How long did the apprentices in Naas tolerate third world conditions in Devoy, until the facility closed, and the OPW happily bulldozed the entire place, to make room for Kildare Co Council offices.

              If we removed the emotional attachment to our old buildings, could we have a better standard of accomodation? Is it time to knock the 3 and 4 story blocks built in Victorian times looking onto the parade square, and replace everything with fit for purpose offices, single accom and training rooms?
              I am thinking of one historic structure, destroyed by fire in 2007 or thereabouts in Haulbowline. Block 4 used to be a storeroom for random things, as well as offices for what became the Halpin Centre. It cannot be used for anything now, as the fire damaged the structural integrity of the limestone. A steel frame now stops it from falling down. It joins other buildings in the same place destroyed by fire, where money spent maning it safe from falling over would be better spent rebuilding something identical in size and shape on the footprint, except with modern energy efficient design, and luxuries such as hot and cold running water, functioning toilets, windows that open or close and enough electrical outlets for everyone. A modern building might not cost so much on routine maintenance either.
              It can be done. In the early 90s, the entirety of Married Quarters in Collins barracks Cork, along with what once were old stables that had been repurposed as workshops/offices were bulldozed, and replaced with a modern dining block, Gym and Base workshops. Unfortunately the Married quarters were never replaced but this was a local solution to the issue of overholders, which still blights the Curragh today.
              The DoD and the DF are not museum curators. They should not have to work in or with buildings and equipment that belong in or as a museum. It is ironic that we have such emotional attachment to buildings that the founders of the state spent so much time trying to destroy.
              The question are they fit for purpose?
              They were designed and built in very different time, built when drill meant something different than today.
              Would the DF be better off devesting from all the old city barracks and building modern facilities to house and train the future soldiers?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                The question are they fit for purpose?
                They were designed and built in very different time, built when drill meant something different than today.
                Would the DF be better off devesting from all the old city barracks and building modern facilities to house and train the future soldiers?
                Thing is, the history lies in the Locations, not the buildings. Men of Limerick and Clare from the 12th left Sarsfield Barracks for the Congo the same way that they left for Lebanon, and more recently Golan, A century before, other irish men in different uniforms also left from there heading to defend their way of life elsewhere. Same can be said for most of the home barracks of the larger units.

                The "Aerodrome" in Fermoy was built for the Royal Flying Corps during WW1. The Irish Army (having burnt Fermoy Barracks to the ground ) took over the facility on the foundation of the state. The Air Corps used it for a time during the Emergency, its grass airstrip still intact before 1 Cav took it over permanently, then Known as the Motor squadron. Their facilities remained as the brits had built them during WW1, the Hangars that used to house Sopwith Biplanes and Gloster Gladiators, ended up as the main storage for Panhard armoured vehicles, and everyone else in timber huts.
                But 1 Cav, even though they moved to Cork about 20 years ago was always a Fermoy unit, and Fitzgerald camp was always "The Aerodrome". The flat Fermoy accent (not unlike an East Limerick one) was a familiar sound to the Glengarry folk.
                I'm sure similar can be said of 2 Cav in Dublin, originally a Griffith Bks unit.

                When troops were first stationed on the Curragh Plains, it was under canvas. If Our lot were in charge then, we would still be under canvas there today.
                German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                German 2: Private? I am a general!
                German 1: That is the bad news.

                Comment

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