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What is killing the RDF?

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  • #31
    Luchi - and everyone else who claims to be able to do a full days training after a night in the mess having a few pints-

    I wonder if you could do a full days training, with full CEMO and CEFO on you after a night in the mess?
    I sincerely doubt it. And I would call you a liar if you even have the audacity to claim that you are and that you know plenty of people capable of doing it.


    And that attitude, from you and the other "old sweats" as you call them, is the wrong kind of an example to be setting to people coming into the RDF.
    Is irresponsible, and it is an hypocrisy of what it means to wear the uniform of an irish soldier in the DF in the 21st century. That is the type of attitude to soldiering that results in us black beret wearing kind looking down upon reservists.

    Granted the people that have this attitude are on their way out, and don't have much to offer the RDF...and I mean that too. Regardless of how many years experience they have...a night in the mess will not leave any soldier, PDF or RDF, in any fit state to be effective with regards training or being on duty.

    Its unprofessional and anyone with that attitude has the wrong attitude to what it means to wear the uniform.
    I have time for reservists that have the right attitude to training, but I wouldn't waste my time with people that see any course as a handy week and night on night basis of getting hammered in the mess.
    This is one of the main reasons that we PDF are reluctant and unwilling to help out the RDF...so Luchi, its people like you that are hiolding back and hurting the organisation...because you guys need us PDF more than we need you. And I would say that the RDF doesn't need people like you either. And that if you think otherwise, then you are believing your own press.

    I am not bag bashing there with the last point, but I am pointing out that you would have a better chance of finding an honest man in parliament, than someone in the PDF who would be willing to give up his or her time to teach/train RDF personnel who view it as a drinking club.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by madmullen58 View Post
      I tell a whats killing the RDF... bitching

      Lads want a bitch before getting stuck in and doin what must be done.(leads to bitching)
      H&S has gone to far.. cant even have a kick about with a pti/ptl ect. .(leads to bitching)
      Also the army dont want the RDF to work .(leads to bitching).
      Each unit has minimun of 2 lads who do EVERYTHING and the rest sit back..(leads to bitching)
      The Alcohol fcuks up everything


      Most of all Officers arent real officers.. they wont stand up and be counted..always running to the cadre to see if there doin the right thing,,, Officers of the RDF need to make decisions for the RDF not the cadre making decisions!! I salute the minority of officers mainly 2/Lts and Lts just of ther course full of the jazz but the 'old sweats' who are in the FCA 834 years ruin them after 18months!!

      Sorry if i offended any of the members of IMO but this is my view. I believe somone has a signature saying 'stuck in a baggers world'
      I'd agree with a lot of that

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by ODIN View Post
        For the record, to qualify as a 3 star, the Pte is meant to complete a 24 hr exercise."
        I had three 'on the ground' 24hr exercises done before i was a 2 star, i assumed most units were like that

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Jonesy View Post

          Its unprofessional and anyone with that attitude has the wrong attitude to what it means to wear the uniform.
          I have time for reservists that have the right attitude to training, but I wouldn't waste my time with people that see any course as a handy week and night on night basis of getting hammered in the mess.
          .
          Just reminded me of what went on at our continuation trg this year. On excercise with a PDF Coy for several days. The night before the final phase, some PDF Officers in the mess asked our Pln Cmdr where all the troops were? considering the rest of the camp was in the mess. To which the Pln Cmdr replies " they're in the billets getting the kit ready and going over drills". To which came the PDF reply, its changed since I was in the FCA!
          "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

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          • #35
            Jonesey said
            And that attitude, from you and the other "old sweats" as you call them, is the wrong kind of an example to be setting to people coming into the RDF.
            Is irresponsible, and it is an hypocrisy of what it means to wear the uniform of an irish soldier in the DF in the 21st century. That is the type of attitude to soldiering that results in us black beret wearing kind looking down upon reservists.
            Well jonsey you have set yourself some pretty high stands in your rant, but I am sure that the standards you set are a shining light and the Current PDF meet with your standards as well, Well done.:confused:

            Be carefull when referring to "Old Sweats" cause if your lucky enough you may eventually become one.

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            • #36
              Well jonsey you have set yourself some pretty high stands in your rant, but I am sure that the standards you set are a shining light and the Current PDF meet with your standards as well, Well done.:confused:

              Be carefull when referring to "Old Sweats" cause if your lucky enough you may eventually become one.[/QUOTE]

              I don't think he was painting all the "old sweats" with the same brush. And he was quoting Luchi who called them "old sweats".
              Although what I think he meant was that the people who go on camp and sit in the mess night after night aren't capable of doing training. And I would agree with him, because they never get stuck into the exercises or training. And PT too. They are never able to do it because they are not in shape.
              All the people that sit in the mess every time are the very same people that wouldn't even be able to run for a bus. That is how out of shape they are...and as a result would be no value to a section in attack. None whatsoever.

              What I think he is hitting the nail on the head here with is the fact that these people are not actually offering anything to the RDF. And probably rest on their laurels too.
              This is a military organisation, and as such a degree of professionalism is required. I know that after a Saturday night out I am in no fit state first thing in the morning...and that would hold true if I was on FTT too.

              And to add something to the debate, what impression does it leave on a young recruit or private when they have an NCO giving them orders when he/she is still obviously hungover? The answer is not a very good one.
              Especially when the orders are being given out half-arsed because said NCO is not able to "function" properly.
              It leaves two impressions - that this is acceptable because the NCO in charge does it; OR **** this for a game of soldiers, I'm off.

              And what impression does that give to the PDF looking in from the outside? The very point that Jonesy covered.
              And he was pointing out that PDF are reluctant to give of their time because this is what they see. And I would agree with him that we are in a position whereby we are more dependent on them for experience and training, because they are the level that we are trying to reach. Or as close as we can get.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Jonesy View Post
                but I wouldn't waste my time with people that see any course as a handy week and night on night basis of getting hammered in the mess.
                There you go with the assumption that everyone that goes to the mess needs to get hammered.
                There mess is there for relaxation. ANy night that I am O/S or duty driver I would go to the mess and watch the TV.

                Originally posted by Jonesy View Post
                Luchi - and everyone else who claims to be able to do a full days training after a night in the mess having a few pints-
                So consider someone unfit for training after drinking 3 pints and going to bed at 10:30?:confused:

                I wonder if you could do a full days training, with full CEMO and CEFO on you after a night in the mess?
                Define night in the mess.
                But alas at my age doing a full days training in CEMO is a strain regardless of what I do the night before.
                Howeve I do ensure that my BA is well below the legal limit and that I am alert and able to safely controll a vehicle or a pupil I might be instructing.

                ALso I know a number of messes where the SM has his stool which is occupied every night but I suppose SMs don't train like the rest of you in the PDF:confused:

                .....................I would call you a liar if you even have the audacity to claim that you are and that you know plenty of people capable of doing it.
                So you just have.

                And that attitude, from you and the other "old sweats" as you call them, is the wrong kind of an example to be setting to people coming into the RDF.
                I think the attitude that one can relax without getting hammered is quite healthy.
                I don't do flaming sambuko, fat frogs or Jager bombs unlike a group of PDF lads was with in the Rathmines Inn. One of whom had to leave at 11 because he was on duty the next day.

                And I would say that the RDF doesn't need people like you either. And that if you think otherwise, then you are believing your own press.
                THat is your opinion which appears to be based on the opinion that people that go to the mess must get hammered. This is not the case.

                but I am pointing out that you would have a better chance of finding an honest man in parliament, than someone in the PDF who would be willing to give up his or her time to teach/train RDF personnel who view it as a drinking club.
                Very sweeping statement.
                BUt what do you mean by view it as a drinking club?
                do you think working hard all day and relaxing at night is wrong?
                Without supplies no army is brave.

                —Frederick the Great,

                Instructions to his Generals, 1747

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                • #38
                  i dont know where people find the time to go to the mess on ftt or weekends to be honest. A typical day during continuation trg for me would be up at 6, go out for a run, usually 5km ish. Back for 0640, shower, shave, shite, dressed. 0700 is then revellie for troops, who see a fully dressed nco waiting for them. O725 is roll call, quick billet check, off to breakfast. O800 is parade, finished by 0820. Draw wpns/keys prep trg rooms while troops get their own kit and tidy rooms. 0900 -1225 is instrucional period. Canteen break 15min ddpending on barrack routine. 1230-1320 lunch. 1330 to 1730 trg period. 1730 -1800 clean wpns, kit, clean rooms, trg area. 1800 dinner. 1840 weapons in and kit back. 1900 pln togged out for pt. 2000 return. From 2000 to 2330 troops have their time. This is taken up by shower after pt, clean and iron uniform, boots, cefo etc. They also have to file any notes they have taken, clean the billets for inspection, clean toilets and shower area and do laundry. Lights out 2330/0000 depending on schedule. The 2000 - 2330 for me includes all the personal admin above but also preparing next days lessons, lesson plans, re-reading manuals, making sure i'll have all kit available. I then have to update my troops training diary about how they are performing each day, any points to focus on and hand it off to pln cmdr. I usually finish up under torch light at 0100. so if anyone can get to the mess for 3 pints and do all the above in 2 and a half hours, let me know how you do it.
                  "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

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                  • #39
                    Who will you be handing weapons back to at 1840? The Q finished at 1700...
                    Of course not everyone has the ability to time their shite to fit in to the military schedule.

                    Some spew it all day...


                    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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                    • #40
                      Who will you be handing weapons back to at 1840? The Q finished at 1700...
                      Q doesn't need to be there, Storeman can do that.
                      "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                      "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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                      • #41
                        Question is do RDF CQ's trust their storemen to do it?

                        My experience says no.
                        It is only by contemplation of the incompetent that we can appreciate the difficulties and accomplishments of the competent.

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                        • #42
                          In my experience the storeman is also a Q....


                          Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by ZULU View Post
                            ....troops, who see a fully dressed nco waiting for them. O725 is roll call, quick billet check, off to breakfast. O800 is parade, finished by 0820.
                            THats all pretty standard.
                            Since I teach tpt courses there are no weapons so you can sub in draw keys and check vehicles.
                            0900 -16.00 is instrucional period. Breaks are taken as required. 16.00- POL and close down vehicles until dinner. 1840 - 2000 as per program.

                            From 2000 to 2330 troops have their time
                            .

                            And I suppose this is another key difference.
                            The people I would be training should do all this stuff with no aid from me or other course instructors.
                            Like wise with the trg diaries however the student/instructor ratio is 2/1 and at the stage of FTT you are preparing for test so there should not be lots of writing.

                            if anyone can get to the mess for 3 pints and do all the above in 2 and a half hours, let me know how you do it.
                            And so many of us can.

                            On the other hand I have just spent 3 hours each evening for the past week preparing presentations for this tuesdays (tonights) two 45min lessons.
                            I know its not the first time I've said this:
                            Some people have to concentrate their training as equipment and facilities are only available on FTT.
                            Some have to adapth their training to suit weather conditions.
                            And some of us have to put in a lot of preparation that pays off in the smooth running of the course.
                            I am no lesser an instructor because what I am doing allows me to prepare further in advance then you . At the end of the day we will both apend as long in preparation.
                            Without supplies no army is brave.

                            —Frederick the Great,

                            Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by ZULU View Post
                              i dont know where people find the time to go to the mess on ftt or weekends to be honest. A typical day during continuation trg for me would be up at 6, go out for a run, usually 5km ish. Back for 0640, shower, shave, shite, dressed. 0700 is then revellie for troops, who see a fully dressed nco waiting for them. O725 is roll call, quick billet check, off to breakfast. O800 is parade, finished by 0820. Draw wpns/keys prep trg rooms while troops get their own kit and tidy rooms. 0900 -1225 is instrucional period. Canteen break 15min ddpending on barrack routine. 1230-1320 lunch. 1330 to 1730 trg period. 1730 -1800 clean wpns, kit, clean rooms, trg area. 1800 dinner. 1840 weapons in and kit back. 1900 pln togged out for pt. 2000 return. From 2000 to 2330 troops have their time. This is taken up by shower after pt, clean and iron uniform, boots, cefo etc. They also have to file any notes they have taken, clean the billets for inspection, clean toilets and shower area and do laundry. Lights out 2330/0000 depending on schedule. The 2000 - 2330 for me includes all the personal admin above but also preparing next days lessons, lesson plans, re-reading manuals, making sure i'll have all kit available. I then have to update my troops training diary about how they are performing each day, any points to focus on and hand it off to pln cmdr. I usually finish up under torch light at 0100. so if anyone can get to the mess for 3 pints and do all the above in 2 and a half hours, let me know how you do it.
                              Which our FTT was run as smoothly as that....

                              My personal admin usually starts at around 2030/2100 (depending on what we are doing), 30 minutes preparing kit for the morning. Check the troops, prepare anything else I have to do for the morning and head to mess to destress and wind down for 1-2 hours max and max 3 pints. Chances are first one up in the billet and on checking corporals are doing there job at 0715.

                              Originally posted by dirtyshirt View Post
                              In my experience the storeman is also a Q....
                              Who also has to be supervised to cadre CQ.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by ZULU View Post
                                iI usually finish up under torch light at 0100.
                                I meant to comment about this earlier.
                                1. that working for extended periods is bad for you eyes.
                                2. lights out meand that. WHy do you breach orders?
                                3. 5 hours sleep is insufficient for someone doing strenous activities such as you have just described.
                                  Such sleep deprevation leads to poor judgement and in extreme cases hellucination.
                                  In which case you are less efficient than the guy with the hangover.
                                Without supplies no army is brave.

                                —Frederick the Great,

                                Instructions to his Generals, 1747

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