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  • Hearing Protection

    Seriously, who do HAVE to wear Peltors?? I mean the whole thing about hearing protection was because of all those claims, but that was because protection wasn't supplied. Shouldn't the DF be covered against stuff like that as long as they provide protection and advise people to wear it? Rather then force them to wear it???

    I mean you can't hear orders properly at all and they barely fit under the Orlite helmet we use.

    Once when we were doing tactics in the Glen both me and my 2FSG thought the 2IC told us to get "across that river" rather then "by that river". So we ending up to our knee's in a stream about 4 meters across, upon reaching the point we where supposedly supposed to go too, we had to run BACK across the river. As well as that there were a lot of other **** ups from everybody in the platoon due to not being able to hear the orders.

    I understand that it may be more important for PDF personnel to wear them because they use weapons and explosives a lot more often (hence the new active hearing protection). But really you need to subjected to load noises on a daily bases for a good while before your hearing is permanently effected. Something that your not subjected too long enough in the RDF to really cause any long term damage. Not to mention the effect it has on your ability to aim when wearing both the Orlite and Peltors. Obviously using mortars, artillery etc is a different story, but i'm talking about just operating the Steyr and GPMG.

    Myself and a lot of other guys i see simply move the Peltors so that their not blocking your ears, it's extremely uncomfortable, but at least you can hear.

    Basically i'm just wondering why we're forced to wear it rather then just given a choice??

    MOD: There is no evidence in the public domain to suggest the an officer who suffered serious injuries was due to the wearing of hearing protection. The matter is subject to a DF investigation and speculation will not be tolerated.
    Last edited by DeV; 26 October 2009, 21:24.

  • #2
    Originally posted by amurph0 View Post
    Seriously, who do HAVE to wear Peltors?? I mean the whole thing about hearing protection was because of all those claims, but that was because protection wasn't supplied. Shouldn't the DF be covered against stuff like that as long as they provide protection and advise people to wear it? Rather then force them to wear it???

    I mean you can't hear orders properly at all and they barely fit under the Orlite helmet we use.

    Once when we were doing tactics in the Glen both me and my 2FSG thought the 2IC told us to get "across that river" rather then "by that river". So we ending up to our knee's in a stream about 4 meters across, upon reaching the point we where supposedly supposed to go too, we had to run BACK across the river. As well as that there were a lot of other **** ups from everybody in the platoon due to not being able to hear the orders.

    And thats only a minor thing, wasn't that incident there a few months ago where that PDF officer was injured from a back blast of an AT4 directly linked to the firer not being able to hear his orders because he was wearing hearing protection?

    I understand that it may be more important for PDF personnel to wear them because they use weapons and explosives a lot more often (hence the new active hearing protection). But really you need to subjected to load noises on a daily bases for a good while before your hearing is permanently effected. Something that your not subjected too long enough in the RDF to really cause any long term damage. Not to mention the effect it has on your ability to aim when wearing both the Orlite and Peltors. Obviously using mortars, artillery etc is a different story, but i'm talking about just operating the Steyr and GPMG.

    Myself and a lot of other guys i see simply move the Peltors so that their not blocking your ears, it's extremely uncomfortable, but at least you can hear.

    Basically i'm just wondering why we're forced to wear it rather then just given a choice??
    Like you said, the deafness claims, there just covering their arses and rightly so. If your given something to protect your hearing then don't wear it, then complain about hearing loss, its your own falt and to not wearing them in the rdf is just a massive load of bull, I'm sick of hearing "I can't hearing anything with them on" boo hoo, I haven't meet anyone who can and I deffently can't when I wear them.

    Your given them for a reason, you either wear them or you wear them, no if ands or buts, the rule is there for a reason. I f you have a problem with it either leave or get yourself a pair of active peltors, but if you did that then you still wouldn't be able to shoot would you? I have never heard anyone ever complain that they couldn't shoot a weapon propertly with them on, have you never fired on the range with them on?

    They only go on your head one way and cover your ears correctly one way, when you put the helmet on it shouldn't move them. Then your shooting shouldn't be affected because you have fired before hand with them on and without a helmet so it shouldn't make a difference.
    paul
    Sargent Major
    Last edited by paul; 25 October 2009, 22:20.
    Don't stand there GAWPING, like you've never seen the hand of God BEFORE!!

    Comment


    • #3
      Because its an order.
      It is only by contemplation of the incompetent that we can appreciate the difficulties and accomplishments of the competent.

      Comment


      • #4
        Well I started in the days before adequate hearing protection was provided and I remember my ears ringing for days after being on the range.

        Hearing protection is provided for a reason, use it.

        Comment


        • #5
          I agree 1000000% with B 20

          I too was a child of pre hearing protection

          during tactics one can use hand signals etc

          hearing protection is a must
          Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
          Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
          The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
          The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
          The best lack all conviction, while the worst
          Are full of passionate intensity.

          Comment


          • #6
            Id rather not hear orders during some 'exercise' then not be able to hear at all in 10 years time.
            To close with and kill the enemy in all weather conditions, night and day and over any terrain

            Comment


            • #7
              usetabeanera

              Originally posted by amurph0 View Post
              Seriously, who do HAVE to wear Peltors?? I mean the whole thing about hearing protection was because of all those claims, but that was because protection wasn't supplied. Shouldn't the DF be covered against stuff like that as long as they provide protection and advise people to wear it? Rather then force them to wear it???

              I mean you can't hear orders properly at all and they barely fit under the Orlite helmet we use.

              Once when we were doing tactics in the Glen both me and my 2FSG thought the 2IC told us to get "across that river" rather then "by that river". So we ending up to our knee's in a stream about 4 meters across, upon reaching the point we where supposedly supposed to go too, we had to run BACK across the river. As well as that there were a lot of other **** ups from everybody in the platoon due to not being able to hear the orders.

              And thats only a minor thing, wasn't that incident there a few months ago where that PDF officer was injured from a back blast of an AT4 directly linked to the firer not being able to hear his orders because he was wearing hearing protection?

              I understand that it may be more important for PDF personnel to wear them because they use weapons and explosives a lot more often (hence the new active hearing protection). But really you need to subjected to load noises on a daily bases for a good while before your hearing is permanently effected. Something that your not subjected too long enough in the RDF to really cause any long term damage. Not to mention the effect it has on your ability to aim when wearing both the Orlite and Peltors. Obviously using mortars, artillery etc is a different story, but i'm talking about just operating the Steyr and GPMG.

              Myself and a lot of other guys i see simply move the Peltors so that their not blocking your ears, it's extremely uncomfortable, but at least you can hear.

              Basically i'm just wondering why we're forced to wear it rather then just given a choice??
              Imagine this scenario in 20 years time, you are sitting with your buddies having a pint in your local, they are laughing their heads off at a joke one of them has just told.

              You are sitting there with a blank expression on your face cause you could not hear the punch line properly. Just one of the effects of not using hearing protection.

              I'm just speaking from experience what would I know.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by paul View Post
                Like you said, the deafness claims, there just covering their arses and rightly so. If your given something to protect your hearing then don't wear it, then complain about hearing loss, its your own falt and to not wearing them in the rdf is just a massive load of bull, I'm sick of hearing "I can't hearing anything with them on" boo hoo, I haven't meet anyone who can and I deffently can't when I wear them.

                Your given them for a reason, you either wear them or you either wear them, no if ands or buts, the rule is there for a reason. I f you have a problem with it either leave or get yourself a pair of active peltors, but if you did that then you still wouldn't be able to shoot would you? I have never heard anyone ever complain that they couldn't shoot a weapon propertly with them on, have you never fired on the range with them on?

                They only go on your head one way and cover your ears correctly one way, when you put the helmet on it shouldn't move them. Then your shooting shouldn't be affected because you have fired before hand with them on and without a helmet so it shouldn't make a difference.
                But thats the thing, nobody really does wear them. Their always pushed forward in the helmet, people who do that haven't developed hearing problems, and what about those folks in the days before peltors? A lot of those claims were made not because those people legitimately had hearing problems, but because hearing protection wasn't supplied and they saw an opportunity. I'm just saying they should give you a choice. Providing hearing protection and advising you to wear it should have them covered. Actually wearing them should be your own decision, a lot like how i decide whether or not i want to wear gloves, whether issued or not. Brits and americans as well a lot of other folks from a lot of other armies don't wear hearing protection, not because it's not issued, but because they choose not to.

                I've fired on the range before with the helmet and peltors on in a shooting competition and found it a lot harder to look down the sight, instead of looking straight ahead down it you have to turn your head in towards the rifle so you can get your eye behind the sight properly. It makes it a lot harder to quickly get a sight picture. Firing with just the peltors is fine, it's when you have both them and the helmet on that it becomes fairly hard, it's probably the straps on the helmet around the peltors or something, but it's definitely a lot harder. And on the range i wear them properly rather then on tactics where their pushed aside.

                But it's really just on an exersise that i have a problem with wearing them, blanks aren't as loud as live rounds and really you only have an average of about 2 platoon attacks during a 24hr exercise anyways.

                I know what their for, and i appreciate being given the opportunity to wear them, but the decision in the end should be my own. And i think that their's no risk involved in just not wearing for those few times we actually use blanks. Is it too much to ask to do a better job?

                Comment


                • #9
                  mate,

                  If I was you I would listen to the lads who know

                  whilst you can still listen to us.
                  Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                  Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                  The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                  The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                  The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                  Are full of passionate intensity.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by amurph0 View Post
                    But thats the thing, nobody really does wear them. Their always pushed forward in the helmet, people who do that haven't developed hearing problems, and what about those folks in the days before peltors? A lot of those claims were made not because those people legitimately had hearing problems, but because hearing protection wasn't supplied and they saw an opportunity. I'm just saying they should give you a choice. Providing hearing protection and advising you to wear it should have them covered. Actually wearing them should be your own decision, a lot like how i decide whether or not i want to wear gloves, whether issued or not. Brits and americans as well a lot of other folks from a lot of other armies don't wear hearing protection, not because it's not issued, but because they choose not to.

                    I've fired on the range before with the helmet and peltors on in a shooting competition and found it a lot harder to look down the sight, instead of looking straight ahead down it you have to turn your head in towards the rifle so you can get your eye behind the sight properly. It makes it a lot harder to quickly get a sight picture. Firing with just the peltors is fine, it's when you have both them and the helmet on that it becomes fairly hard, it's probably the straps on the helmet around the peltors or something, but it's definitely a lot harder. And on the range i wear them properly rather then on tactics where their pushed aside.

                    But it's really just on an exersise that i have a problem with wearing them, blanks aren't as loud as live rounds and really you only have an average of about 2 platoon attacks during a 24hr exercise anyways.

                    I know what their for, and i appreciate being given the opportunity to wear them, but the decision in the end should be my own. And i think that their's no risk involved in just not wearing for those few times we actually use blanks. Is it too much to ask to do a better job?
                    I'm not trying to slag you here but I don't know whether you're PDF or RDF and I don't know your level of experience but I know where you're coming from.

                    Peltors at the end of the day are a pain in the arse. A necessary pain in the arse but a pain in the arse nonetheless.

                    If you're having trouble with them on tactics hearing orders then my advice to you is to do what I do. When you hear someone shouting a command, lift the left peltor ear up and shout 'WHHAAAAA!?!?!?'

                    Then wait out for the follow up repeat command. Works like a charm.
                    To close with and kill the enemy in all weather conditions, night and day and over any terrain

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by amurph0 View Post
                      blanks aren't as loud as live rounds
                      And there I was under the impression it was the other way around!


                      You are required to wear them. It is better than going deaf. If you are RDF, what if life leads you to a job where you need good hearing but your attitude to peltors means you no longer have it. If you are PDF, what if you go deaf? Where's your job?


                      I do believe that it is for people like you that wearng peltors should be mandatory....
                      johnny no stars
                      Colonel
                      Last edited by johnny no stars; 25 October 2009, 23:31. Reason: clarity - original wording was a bit lacking
                      Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
                      Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
                      Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
                      Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by johnny no stars View Post
                        And there I was under the impression it was the other way around!


                        You are required to wear them. It is better than going deaf. If you are RDF, what if life leads you to a job where you need good hearing but your attitude to peltors means you no longer have it. If you are PDF, what if you go deaf? Where's your job?


                        I do believe that it is for people like you that wearing peltors should not be an option.
                        I always assumed blanks would be louder seeing as how they only contain enough powder to cycle another round. And on the range i always felt that lives where noticeably louder.

                        Well i'm in the RDF, joined when i was 17. Wanted to go PDF since i was small but recruitment stopped a few months before my leaving cert.

                        So in the RDF i wouldn't even be exposed to levels of noises capable of permanently damaging my hearing long enough (except mortar and anti-tank courses obviously), which is why i'm arguing that you should be given a choice not to wear them on the rare exercise you would participate in that would actually have blanks. And few blanks at that.

                        Whereas in the PDF i'd have active hearing protection that i'm sure actually enhances my ability to hear quieter noises while at the same time blocking loud noises, as well as that i'd have enough helmet space to actually wear them comfortably, which is one of the reasons those PASGT helmets where brought into the PDF in the late 90's to replace the Orlite still used in the reserve. Those helmets have now been replaced by a better MICH style helmet, so what happened to those old PASGT type ones, i dunno. So in answer to that question, i think in the PDF i'd actually prefer to where active hearing protection.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The PDF had a small amount of PASGT type helmets in service, for use with the headsets in Mowags. They were not on general issue.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by amurph0 View Post
                            I always assumed blanks would be louder seeing as how they only contain enough powder to cycle another round. And on the range i always felt that lives where noticeably louder.
                            That's because of how hearing works. It's sensitive to the perceived change in level of noise, rather than the actual level of noise. Tactics has a higher base level of noise than firing a range practice does, but the actually sound pressure is higher from blanks. Check the numbers if you don't believe me.


                            Oh and if you want PDF, surely that should be motivation enough to get over your issues with discomfort, wear the peltors and preserve your hearing!
                            Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
                            Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
                            Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
                            Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              having fired both blank and a live once without hearing protection the live is much louder and your ears will sting after it it is quite uncomfortable the blank is much less.
                              i remember reading someplace that the Brits allow so many blank rounds to be fired per day without hearing protection wouldn't swear to it in court however.
                              wear the peltors your feet will dry out the fcuk ups can be put right your hearing cant be reissued by the Q .
                              "take a look to the sky right before you die, its the last time you will"

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