Not relevant to the "Where after Chad?" thread in Overseas

[sofa]

the Irish DF and the people back home can neither stomach nor support a battalion in Afghanistan so pick another trouble spot!

Basra O shit did I say basra. sorry RGJ




Flashbacks Can you hear flipflops? Boom, Woossssh. Music, Flags.

[RoyalGreenJacket]

Basra O shit did I say basra. sorry RGJ




Flashbacks Can you hear flipflops? Boom, Woossssh. Music, Flags.

yeah - good example of where an Irish DF "pic'n'mix" battalion wouldn't stand a chance sofa, and Afghan is much worse - like I said - pick another trouble spot!

[Goldie fish]

yeah - good example of where an Irish DF "pic'n'mix" battalion wouldn't stand a chance sofa, and Afghan is much worse - like I said - pick another trouble spot!

Ahem.

OK I am laying down a few rules for this thread.

1. No discussions on the rights or wrongs of the UN sanctioned Afghanistan mission.
2. No "my army is better than your army" type discussions.

If you want to talk about those topics set up your own threads so the rest of us can choose to ignore them. Any breaches of these rules will lead to the posts being removed and points awarded.

[RoyalGreenJacket]

Basra O shit did I say basra. sorry RGJ




Flashbacks Can you hear flipflops? Boom, Woossssh. Music, Flags.

Ahem.

Ahem....

you expect Sofa to post crap like this given the restrictions you just highlighted and you expect me not to respond?

what's good for the Goose is good for the Gander...

dream on lads - you won't be going to Afghan with the Irish DF unless you are one of the 'lucky 7'.

[ZULU]

I'll do my part promoting the DF and the importance of o/seas at every opportunity. Those still serving need to take your local RA representative around the back of the billets and 'explain' that o/seas has to be the number one priority. Not allowances, not barrack closures, not the DF Pony Club, not the RDF Cadre, not the promotion/recruitment embargo. Overseas is the lynch pin that holds everything else together.

Hopefully it will work out ok and the number overseas will get back up to the 850 before the ink dries on the White Paper. Time for the General Staff to earn those six figure salaries

RDF pay and Cadre (421) Allowances (Cadre Wages come in around the 17 million mark)

TABLE 2 - Cost of the RDF from 2003 to 30 September 2009
Subhead 2003€ 2004€ 2005€ 2006€ 2007€ 2008€ 2009 (Sept)€

C - Allowances paid to PDF Cadre 1,936,903 1,945,277 1,662,363 1,612,299 1,706,582 1,787,272 1,135,325

D - RDF Pay etc. 11,106,000 11,234,000 10,542,000 9,728,000 8,839,000 9,138,000 4,842,000

P - Car Allowance & Car Mileage 828,878 1,163,023 223,584** 639,243 702,363 636,808 302,566

R - Rent of Property 298,446 255,772 163,971 196,128 139,433 140,479 64,467(to 31 Aug 09)

** Car allowance only, the figure for car mileage is being compiled and will be forwarded to the Deputy as soon as possible.

External consultants currently working for Department

Colonel E.V. Campion, (Rtd.) is a member of the Army Equitation School’s Horse Purchase Board and he offers expert advice to the Board in their deliberations following the inspection of horses that are being considered for purchase.

Reductions in the number of Permanent Defence Force personnel deployed overseas to Kosovo and Bosnia-Herzegovina will achieve savings of up to €7m, while reduced Naval Service patrol days and the optimisation of Air Corps flying hours will deliver savings of €2.2m.

[Goldie fish]

Does he Go to cahermee or Ballinasloe for the horsies?

[timhorgan]

[

QUOTE=RoyalGreenJacket;295503]yeah - good example of where an Irish DF "pic'n'mix" battalion wouldn't stand a chance sofa, and Afghan is much worse - like I said - pick another trouble spot!

[/QUOTE]

Sofa,
I have to hand it to RGJ here- for what I think must be the first time ever he seems to know what he is talking about.

Captain James Phillipson of the RHA was killed near Sangin in mid-2006. He was part of a QRF which responded to an ambush on another patrol.

The QRF was a composite BA force made up of 30 men from 13 different arms who had never worked as a fighting team.

The Oxford Coroner said that "totally inadequate resources had led to the unit being out-gunned by a bunch of renegades and a lack of basic equipment" .

Even the BA Board of Inquiry stated:

"Phillipson......had been killed as a result of poor tactical decision-making, a lack of SOP's and lack of equipment". The CO, Maj. Bristow told the Inquiry he had issued no SOP's and carried out no rehearsals when he set up the QRF. He did not brief his patrol on the proposed route or any tactical procedures. The patrol also left without Bowman radios.

So, RGJ does know what it means to work with composite groups but he cannot ever again pretend that the BA has got its act together in this respect.

See below as to how it should be done. These are the orders by the Zimbabwe Republic Police to police Easter Church Services at Anglican Churches in Harare last weekend- there are now 2 factions - 1 pro-Mugabe and 1 independent. It just shows that some of the professionalism of the old BSAP still lingers....







http://cryptome.org/zimbabwe-ban.pdf



Tim Horgan

[Hello Alaska]

[

Sofa,
I have to hand it to RGJ here- for what I think must be the first time ever he seems to know what he is talking about.

Captain James Phillipson of the RHA was killed near Sangin in mid-2006. He was part of a QRF which responded to an ambush on another patrol.

The QRF was a composite BA force made up of 30 men from 13 different arms who had never worked as a fighting team.

The Oxford Coroner said that "totally inadequate resources had led to the unit being out-gunned by a bunch of renegades and a lack of basic equipment" Even the BA Board of Inquiry stated:

"Phillipson......had been killed as a result of poor tactical decision-makinga lack of SOP's and lack of equipment". The CO, Maj. Bristow told the Inquiry he had issued no SOP,s and carried out no rehearsals when he set up the QRF. He did not brief his patrol on the proposed route or any tactical procedures. The patrol also left without Bowman radios.

So, RGJ does know what it means to work with composite groups.

See below as to how it should be done. These are the orders by the Zimbabwe Republic Police to police Easter Church Services at Anglican Churches in Harare last weekend- there are now 2 factions - 1 pro-Mugabe and 1 independent. It just shows that some of the professionalism of the old BSAP still lingers....



http://cryptome.org/zimbabwe-ban.pdf







Tim Horgan[/QUOTE]

To be quite honest, going on what you quoted the fact the Captain(RIP) had been killed doesn't seem to have much to do with the fact the QRF was a mixed bunch.

There was no SOP's set out and no rehearsals carried out when the QRF was put together. The patrol was never briefed on the route they were going to travel and were never given a brief on "actions on..." along with the fact they didn't bring Bowmans.

That's nothing to do with them being a mixed bunch, it's down to a piss poor performance from the Major.

[timhorgan]

[QUOTE=Jungle;295304]There is talk of MONUC coming under Canadian command; Our former Chief of the Land Staff (CLS) is being considered for the job. He would deploy with a staff to man the HQ.
There are also rumours of a Canadian contingent to MONUC after our deployment to Afghanistan comes to an end (july 2011), but a decision is still to come on the after-Afg.

Our CDS is talking a lot about Africa, so yes it could happen. Personnally, I would prefer a mission in a robust coalition environment then a UN gig; been there, done that, was not impressed...

Hi, Jungle,
I do not think that the rest of the world was very impresssed either with the Canadians on UN duty in Somalia back in the day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia_Affair



Also, I think that your CDS,Walter Natynczyk has now shown himself too readily identified with Israel after his recent 3-day visit there. He should at the very least also visited Gaza and spoken to Captain John Ging before making his statements to the Israeli media. I would expect strong Irish opposition to any Irish UN troops serving under a Canadian in any capacity whatsoever until this matter is clarified.


Tim Horgan

[timhorgan]

Sofa,
I have to hand it to RGJ here- for what I think must be the first time ever he seems to know what he is talking about.

Captain James Phillipson of the RHA was killed near Sangin in mid-2006. He was part of a QRF which responded to an ambush on another patrol.

The QRF was a composite BA force made up of 30 men from 13 different arms who had never worked as a fighting team.

The Oxford Coroner said that "totally inadequate resources had led to the unit being out-gunned by a bunch of renegades and a lack of basic equipment" Even the BA Board of Inquiry stated:

"Phillipson......had been killed as a result of poor tactical decision-makinga lack of SOP's and lack of equipment". The CO, Maj. Bristow told the Inquiry he had issued no SOP,s and carried out no rehearsals when he set up the QRF. He did not brief his patrol on the proposed route or any tactical procedures. The patrol also left without Bowman radios.

So, RGJ does know what it means to work with composite groups.

See below as to how it should be done. These are the orders by the Zimbabwe Republic Police to police Easter Church Services at Anglican Churches in Harare last weekend- there are now 2 factions - 1 pro-Mugabe and 1 independent. It just shows that some of the professionalism of the old BSAP still lingers....



http://cryptome.org/zimbabwe-ban.pdf







Tim Horgan

To be quite honest, going on what you quoted the fact the Captain(RIP) had been killed doesn't seem to have much to do with the fact the QRF was a mixed bunch.

There was no SOP's set out and no rehearsals carried out when the QRF was put together. The patrol was never briefed on the route they were going to travel and were never given a brief on "actions on..." along with the fact they didn't bring Bowmans.

That's nothing to do with them being a mixed bunch, it's down to a piss poor performance from the Major.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.
Tim

[Goldie fish]

Jaysus lads could ye learn how to use the quote tags, its impossible to read those posts.

[Jungle]

I don't know how this is related to the thread, and I expect a mod to delete these posts, but here goes anyway:

Hi, Jungle,
I do not think that the rest of the world was very impresssed either with the Canadians on UN duty in Samlia back in the day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia_Affair

Interesting you bring up the Somalia affair (not Samlia ). Even though I was not on that deployment, I was a member of the Cdn Airborne Regiment (CAR) during that period. Your link is interesting, have you read the entire thing ? Look at this passage:

The final report of the inquiry was a striking attack on the procedures, support and leadership of the Canadian Forces and the Ministry of Defence. Many of the top officers in the Canadian Forces were excoriated, including three separate Chiefs of the Defence Staff. The CAR had been rushed into a war zone with inadequate preparation or legal support. Enquiry observer retired Brigadier-General Dan Loomis noted that the operation had changed, in December 1992, "from a peacekeeping operation, where arms are used only in self-defence, to one where arms could be used proactively to achieve politico-military objectives...In short the Canadian Forces were being put on active service and sent to war (as defined by Chapter 7 of the UN Charter)." Its deployment into "war" had never been debated in parliament and indeed the Canadian public had been led to believe by its government that the CAR was on a "peacekeeping" mission.

finally, I can point you one of the guys in the hazing pictures on the link, who is still serving to this day; actually, he deployed to Afghanistan on combat ops recently, and like me he just returned from Haiti on a humanitarian op. He was in Somalia... You see the media put this all black-and-white, but the truth is very few members of the CAR were actually released; in the case of 1 CDO, we were sent as a group to Valcartier to set up the new "Parachute Coy" for the R22eR... some of us are still around to this day, mostly in senior leadership positions now.
So yeah, we were not impressed with that event either, but this kind of shit happens when you actually deploy in difficult situations; also keep in mind that your DF is not immune to one of your members blowing a gasket, and the top brass trying to avoid drowning...

Also, I think that your CDS,Walter Natynczyk has now shown himself too readily identified with Israel after his recent 3-day visit there. He should at the very least also visited Gaza and spoken to Captain John Ging before making his statements to the Israeli media. I would expect strong Irish opposition to any Irish UN troops serving under a Canadian in any capacity whatsoever until this matter is clarified.

I have no issues with our CDS's visit to Israel; it was a professional development visit to a friendly country's Armed Forces, he was not there to visit the UN in Gaza...

So, to somewhat get back on topic, I don't think it's a big show-stopper if the Irish DF chooses not to serve under Canadian command in a UN OP; it won't keep us from doing our job. You can always send a Coy to Haiti under the command of a Sri-Lanka Battalion.

[timhorgan]

Sofa,
I have to hand it to RGJ here- for what I think must be the first time ever he seems to know what he is talking about.

Captain James Phillipson of the RHA was killed near Sangin in mid-2006. He was part of a QRF which responded to an ambush on another patrol.

The QRF was a composite BA force made up of 30 men from 13 different arms who had never worked as a fighting team.

The Oxford Coroner said that "totally inadequate resources had led to the unit being out-gunned by a bunch of renegades and a lack of basic equipment" Even the BA Board of Inquiry stated:

"Phillipson......had been killed as a result of poor tactical decision-makinga lack of SOP's and lack of equipment". The CO, Maj. Bristow told the Inquiry he had issued no SOP,s and carried out no rehearsals when he set up the QRF. He did not brief his patrol on the proposed route or any tactical procedures. The patrol also left without Bowman radios.

So, RGJ does know what it means to work with composite groups.

See below as to how it should be done. These are the orders by the Zimbabwe Republic Police to police Easter Church Services at Anglican Churches in Harare last weekend- there are now 2 factions - 1 pro-Mugabe and 1 independent. It just shows that some of the professionalism of the old BSAP still lingers....



http://cryptome.org/zimbabwe-ban.pdf







Tim Horgan

To be quite honest, going on what you quoted the fact the Captain(RIP) had been killed doesn't seem to have much to do with the fact the QRF was a mixed bunch.

There was no SOP's set out and no rehearsals carried out when the QRF was put together. The patrol was never briefed on the route they were going to travel and were never given a brief on "actions on..." along with the fact they didn't bring Bowmans.

That's nothing to do with them being a mixed bunch, it's down to a piss poor performance from the Major.

[/QUOTE]


Hello Alaska,

Of course you are right- I had unfortunately resorted to irony as RGJ pretends that the BA is somehow superior to the Irish Army while the facts show that there has been criminal mis-management during ops. in Iraq. As I mentioned, I was quite impressed by the attention to detail shown by Harare Police while planning for a simple church protest. You can see that the Irish influence (esp. the use of PISI) which we used to call SB- still lingers- I am proud of these men.

Tim

[danno]

mixed units.

I read in Ed Macys book that RM company taking part in an attack near Garmsir in Jan 07 was a fiasco . A mounted mg gunner hit 5 of his own men one of whom died no bectives were achieved and the company commander a captain was relieved of his command on the spot. A Tribunal found that the captain had never done any C&S at company level, never briefed the unit and the unit had been sent out on garrison duties only.
This was not a mixed unit and yet fell apart on its first contact.The enquiry also was amazed to learn the unit went into action having never done any live firing exercises at company level.

[timhorgan]

[

QUOTE=Jungle;295623]I don't know how this is related to the thread, and I expect a mod to delete these posts, but here goes anyway:

Jungle, Cher Ami,

Why, it is relevant-the Irish Army has a superb reputation to live up to. We value it. Not any old bod can come along and expect to lead it.

finally, I can point you one of the guys in the hazing pictures on the link, who is still serving to this day; actually, he deployed to Afghanistan on combat ops recently, and like me he just returned from Haiti on a humanitarian op. He was in Somalia... You see the media put this all black-and-white, but the truth is very few members of the CAR were actually released; in the case of 1 CDO, we were sent as a group to Valcartier to set up the new "Parachute Coy" for the R22eR... some of us are still around to this day, mostly in senior leadership positions now.

Yes, it seemed to be a black-and-white matter for the Canadian Army also. Ku Klux Klan and all - Pity.

I have no issues with our CDS's visit to Israel; it was a professional development visit to a friendly country's Armed Forces, he was not there to visit the UN in Gaza...

I have no issue either -but I would still prefer to believe Captain John Ging who was on the spot at the time. For the sake of balance he should have gone to Gaza.Your CDS lacks savoir-faire as we say in Quebec.
Ca va pas pour nous Irlandais!.

Vive La Quebec Libre!!! I think that was the great French Republican Charles De Gaulle.

So, to somewhat get back on topic, I don't think it's a big show-stopper if the Irish DF chooses not to serve under Canadian command in a UN OP; it won't keep us from doing our job. You can always send a Coy to Haiti under the command of a Sri-Lanka Battalion.

[/QUOTE]

Do I detect another little bit of racism there? Are the Canadians better than the Sri Lankans - at Ice hockey maybe but certainly not cricket.


Tim Horgan