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  • #31
    Originally posted by Jessup View Post
    The article in the Sunday Times this week says it all. 8% of the prison population in the UK are ex services and most of them are ex Infantry.
    Does it say how many had previous convictions before joining the military however??
    Last edited by concussion; 7 April 2010, 14:54.
    "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Hello Alaska View Post
      Sofa,
      I have to hand it to RGJ here- for what I think must be the first time ever he seems to know what he is talking about.

      Captain James Phillipson of the RHA was killed near Sangin in mid-2006. He was part of a QRF which responded to an ambush on another patrol.

      The QRF was a composite BA force made up of 30 men from 13 different arms who had never worked as a fighting team.

      The Oxford Coroner said that "totally inadequate resources had led to the unit being out-gunned by a bunch of renegades and a lack of basic equipment" Even the BA Board of Inquiry stated:

      "Phillipson......had been killed as a result of poor tactical decision-makinga lack of SOP's and lack of equipment". The CO, Maj. Bristow told the Inquiry he had issued no SOP,s and carried out no rehearsals when he set up the QRF. He did not brief his patrol on the proposed route or any tactical procedures. The patrol also left without Bowman radios.

      So, RGJ does know what it means to work with composite groups.

      See below as to how it should be done. These are the orders by the Zimbabwe Republic Police to police Easter Church Services at Anglican Churches in Harare last weekend- there are now 2 factions - 1 pro-Mugabe and 1 independent. It just shows that some of the professionalism of the old BSAP still lingers....



      http://cryptome.org/zimbabwe-ban.pdf







      Tim Horgan
      To be quite honest, going on what you quoted the fact the Captain(RIP) had been killed doesn't seem to have much to do with the fact the QRF was a mixed bunch.

      There was no SOP's set out and no rehearsals carried out when the QRF was put together. The patrol was never briefed on the route they were going to travel and were never given a brief on "actions on..." along with the fact they didn't bring Bowmans.

      That's nothing to do with them being a mixed bunch, it's down to a piss poor performance from the Major.[/QUOTE]









      REPLY



      This was in 2006 when the situation in Afghanistan rapidly changed from peacekeeping to counter insurgency and open warfare. British units had to rapidly reconfigure for a role they had not been deployed for and were lacking in equipment for such a role.
      Last edited by Vanguard; 7 April 2010, 14:59.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by concussion View Post
        Does it say how many had previous convictions before joining the military however??
        No it doesn't but which is worse? Providing an environment for those who are already criminals to become more dangerous criminals or providing an environment for previously non convicted people to become criminals?
        Last edited by Jessup; 7 April 2010, 15:12.

        Comment


        • #34

          Hello Alaska,

          Of course you are right- I had unfortunately resorted to irony as RGJ pretends that the BA is somehow superior to the Irish Army while the facts show that there has been criminal mis-management during ops. in Iraq. As I mentioned, I was quite impressed by the attention to detail shown by Harare Police while planning for a simple church protest. You can see that the Irish influence (esp. the use of PISI) which we used to call SB- still lingers- I am proud of these men.

          Tim[/QUOTE]


          Its not about claiming the BA is superior, its role is totally different from the defence forces, the complexity of its operations in fast changing theatres means sometimes things will go wrong. You cant seriously compare Irish army 1 battalion UN ops with conflicts like Iraq and Afghanistan, your agenda is simply to denigrade the rep of the BA, partly I suspect due to the fact the Irish army never sees combat, hence the need to big it up by slagging the Brits.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Jessup View Post
            No it doesn't but which is worse? Providing an environment for those who are already criminals to become more dangerous criminals or providing an environment for previously non convicted people to become criminals?


            So a lad with a conviction for an assault or affray should not be allowed to join the infantry ?

            Yet, some go on to make first class soldiers.

            But Obviously I recognise the ethos and personality needed for combat soldiering and pacekeeping and internal security duties are very different.

            Different armies and a different ethos.

            Comment


            • #36
              If you don't have stats for the rates of prior convictions then you statement that 8% of the prison population are EX-servicemen doesn't, in fact, say it all about the standards of the troops. It may say a lot about how they are treated, both during service and afterwards but you can't use that figure to gauge the standard of those applying.
              "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Vanguard View Post
                Standard much lower ? What evidence do you have for that claim ?

                Certainly not in terms of basic recruit fitness and training.

                You speak for British officiers as well ?
                The evidence is on your own website. http://www.armyjobs.mod.uk/toughques...nalrecord.aspx The BA has had to resort to bottom feeding and other initiatives to try and fill it's recruitment quota a long time before Iraq and Afghanistan. The BA is still massively unrepresentative of the ethnic make up of the UK population. Left with such a limited pool to pick from it's inevitable that you are often forced to accept applicants that are far from suitable.

                The evidence is futher substantiated by the fact that 8% of the prison population in the UK are ex services?

                So what about the recruit fitness and training if the individual is of poor character. That very training and fitness is going to produce a far more difficult problem to deal with later either inside or outside service.

                I don't speak for British Officers, they spoke to me. They pointed out that unlike some of the jingoistic nonsense posted by some of the BA posters here that the BA has plenty of problems and horror of all horrors that other Armies might do some things better than them!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Vanguard View Post
                  So a lad with a conviction for an assault or affray should not be allowed to join the infantry ?

                  Yet, some go on to make first class soldiers.

                  But Obviously I recognise the ethos and personality needed for combat soldiering and pacekeeping and internal security duties are very different.

                  Different armies and a different ethos.
                  And therin lies the problem. Is there such a thing as purely 'combat soldiering' nowadays'? Two sides, both in uniform, clearly delineated boundaries etc. that's all a thing of the past. With asymmetric warfare you need a soldier that can do all three. It's not good enough to have some thug who has been trained to use an SA 80 instead of a Stanley Knife.

                  Are you saying you need to be convicted of assault or affray in order to be a good soldier, hardly! So, why bother even taking the risk that some will go on to make first class soldiers while some will cause enormous problem inside and outside of service. The lower standard is there not for military or social reasons it's there because you couldn't fill your quota otherwise.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Jessup View Post
                    And therin lies the problem. Is there such a thing as purely 'combat soldiering' nowadays'? Two sides, both in uniform, clearly delineated boundaries etc. that's all a thing of the past. With asymmetric warfare you need a soldier that can do all three. It's not good enough to have some thug who has been trained to use an SA 80 instead of a Stanley Knife.

                    Are you saying you need to be convicted of assault or affray in order to be a good soldier, hardly! So, why bother even taking the risk that some will go on to make first class soldiers while some will cause enormous problem inside and outside of service. The lower standard is there not for military or social reasons it's there because you couldn't fill your quota otherwise.


                    No its you thats saying a lad with a conviction for something like assault or affrey cannot make a good infantry soldier. When infact events like the Falklands showed such personalities often make the best combat soldiers.

                    Once again you claim the BA has a lower standard, having qualifications does not make someone a good infantryman and to judge an infantrymans combat effectivness on intellectualism shows just how very different the BA and Irish army are in training ethos and their defined roles.

                    Physically some in the Irish army dont look up to soldiering.

                    http://picasaweb.google.com/OpsOffic...94013242612626


                    http://picasaweb.google.com/OpsOffic...93083056904210
                    Last edited by Vanguard; 7 April 2010, 15:57.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Jessup View Post
                      The evidence is on your own website. http://www.armyjobs.mod.uk/toughques...nalrecord.aspx The BA has had to resort to bottom feeding and other initiatives to try and fill it's recruitment quota a long time before Iraq and Afghanistan. The BA is still massively unrepresentative of the ethnic make up of the UK population. Left with such a limited pool to pick from it's inevitable that you are often forced to accept applicants that are far from suitable.

                      The evidence is futher substantiated by the fact that 8% of the prison population in the UK are ex services?

                      So what about the recruit fitness and training if the individual is of poor character. That very training and fitness is going to produce a far more difficult problem to deal with later either inside or outside service.

                      I don't speak for British Officers, they spoke to me. They pointed out that unlike some of the jingoistic nonsense posted by some of the BA posters here that the BA has plenty of problems and horror of all horrors that other Armies might do some things better than them!

                      Dont lecture on the ethnic make up of the BA, how many Poles and Nigerians are in the Irish army then ? The BA has numerous commonwealth soldiers. Considering one in 4 males in the UK has a criminal conviction, 8% when taken as part of a bigger stat is not that bad. So you expect me to believe BA officers slagged off there own men to you ?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Jessup View Post
                        The evidence is on your own website. http://www.armyjobs.mod.uk/toughques...nalrecord.aspx The BA has had to resort to bottom feeding and other initiatives to try and fill it's recruitment quota a long time before Iraq and Afghanistan. The BA is still massively unrepresentative of the ethnic make up of the UK population. Left with such a limited pool to pick from it's inevitable that you are often forced to accept applicants that are far from suitable.

                        The evidence is futher substantiated by the fact that 8% of the prison population in the UK are ex services?

                        So what about the recruit fitness and training if the individual is of poor character. That very training and fitness is going to produce a far more difficult problem to deal with later either inside or outside service.

                        I don't speak for British Officers, they spoke to me. They pointed out that unlike some of the jingoistic nonsense posted by some of the BA posters here that the BA has plenty of problems and horror of all horrors that other Armies might do some things better than them!

                        Jessup,
                        You are quite right.

                        There is an organisation called VIPA -Veterans in Prison Association . They have a conference coming up later this month chaired by General Ramsbotham - former Inspector of Prisons.

                        Their website gives a figure of 12,500 ex-servicemen on Probation/Parole and up to 8,000 in Prison.

                        In addition to that the Homeless Charities here also state that a significant number of homeless on teh streets are ex-servicemen, although there could obviously be an overlap with the above.



                        http://www.veteransinprisonassociation.co.uk/

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by concussion View Post
                          If you don't have stats for the rates of prior convictions then you statement that 8% of the prison population are EX-servicemen doesn't, in fact, say it all about the standards of the troops. It may say a lot about how they are treated, both during service and afterwards but you can't use that figure to gauge the standard of those applying.


                          Standard of the troops ? you have overweight 55 yr old NCOs, please dont take the pee.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Vanguard View Post
                            Its not about claiming the BA is superior, its role is totally different from the defence forces, the complexity of its operations in fast changing theatres means sometimes things will go wrong. You cant seriously compare Irish army 1 battalion UN ops with conflicts like Iraq and Afghanistan, your agenda is simply to denigrade the rep of the BA, partly I suspect due to the fact the Irish army never sees combat, hence the need to big it up by slagging the Brits.
                            With all due respect this is an Irish forum. If we were going over to Arrse and constantly harping on about the Defence Forces there you might have a point.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by FoxtrotRK View Post
                              With all due respect this is an Irish forum. If we were going over to Arrse and constantly harping on about the Defence Forces there you might have a point.


                              Just posting defending the "poor standards" of the BA.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Jessup View Post
                                The evidence is on your own website. http://www.armyjobs.mod.uk/toughques...nalrecord.aspx The BA has had to resort to bottom feeding and other initiatives to try and fill it's recruitment quota a long time before Iraq and Afghanistan. The BA is still massively unrepresentative of the ethnic make up of the UK population.

                                Left with such a limited pool to pick from it's inevitable that you are often forced to accept applicants that are far from suitable.

                                limited pool to pick from?

                                we are almost reaching full manning levels and now only 'Grade A' applicants (explained in other threads) are bing accepted into certain regiments.

                                when i joined the British Army in 1989 - there were only 2 of us out of 6 from the Republic who passed selection and i'm pretty sure none of us were 'bottom feeders' as you put it.

                                the British Army has the luxury of being able to recruit from the UK, the Republic of Ireland and 54 other independent states including Canada, Australia and New Zealand - so tell me how that is a 'limited pool'?

                                seems only having 32 counties to recruit from is a pretty 'limited pool' compared to 56 countries.

                                you are clutching at straws here Jessup - come back to me when you have something decent and credible to snipe at us about.
                                RGJ

                                ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

                                The Rifles

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