Not relevant to the "Where after Chad?" thread in Overseas

[DeV]

On the other hand some appointments in UNIFIL were designated 'Irish Only' by the IDF (not the UN) as they weren't prepared to deal with muppets from some of the other third world contingents. If it was up to the UN there would be an almost quota system where each country would get their turn regardless of ability.

Israeli Defence Forces or (Irish) Defence Force ???

[Jungle]

Timhorgan sounds like a guy who failed selection for a SOF unit and therefore hates "elitism"... I know the type.

After the Somalia incident the Canadians to their credit had an Inquiry and addressed some of the matters relating to an Army within society in general-I have tagged the report below which makes interesting reading. My own preference is still for the Swiss model which Michael Collins favoured- a proper Citizen Army with professional pride in itself but with no airs and graces.

http://www.dnd.ca/somalia/somaliae.htm

The top man at the time in Canada who was severely reprimanded happened to be a certain General Jean de Chastelain.

Get your facts straight; De Chastelain was never reprimanded, and did not deserve to be. When the CAR was disbanded, he was against the MND's decision and offered to resign.
The guy you are talking about is Jean Boyle; he was CDS during the Somalia inquiry, and resigned his command in disgrace.
You express opinions on things you know nothing about, and your credibility is suffering...

When I talk about "Peacekeeping gigs" or "UN war tourism" I am not slagging the Troops; Soldiers (that includes me) will do what they are told. I call them that because of my own experience, and that of other Canadians. I prefer, as most of my Brothers in Arms, to be in a coalition environment that will provide all the combat support and assets needed, including robust ROEs, to actually make a difference, not encourage a stalemate.
Ops like UNFICYP are a testament to that: the mission has been ongoing since 1964 with no resolution in sight. (I served 2 tours with UNFICYP)

No need to mention Rwanda... but BTW, Gen Dallaire in 1994 requested the deployment of the CAR to give himself the tools to deal with the situation there, but it was refused by the UNHQ. I was with the CAR during those days; in fact, I spent most of the period between 1985 and 1995 with the CAR, as a member of 1 Commando.

East Timor is another example, where a coalition intervened and set the conditions for the success of the UN mission; without the robust intervention by INTERFET, I suspect the UN would have failed miserably there. I was there for the INTERFET mission, and I was not wearing a blue hat... I was wearing a maroon beret, as the Army element deployed there was the R22eR Para Coy, consisting of a large number of ex- 1 CDO guys.

Frankly, you come across as an armchair general, never having served a day in the Military; service in the reserves of a para-military police organisation that calls itself "The Regiment" does not count as Military Service. You did prove that you can search the internet though, but even in doing that you are not very effective...

Oh, and it's John De Chastelain.

You should stay in your lane.

[Jessup]

anyhow - please explain "We all know about the Royal Green Jackets role as the 'penal regiment'" - because as a Rifleman in that battalion (and not the only one on this Forum) who knew Ford, Fowler and Pernell personally, drank with them often and served with them in the Falklands before we returned to Cyprus and they killed Louise Jensen - this 'penal regiment' role is new to me. maybe that is also because i am brainwashed with Red, Black and Green but who is the 'all' in 'we all know'?!

I understand that the Royal Green Jackets was a designated penal regiment in the days of the empire when 'problem children' were posted to whatever far flung place the regiment was; India or whatever? The tradition persisted in an informal way as the regiment apparently had specific competencies in dealing with problem children.

The most recent time I heard of it was ex Captain Tim Rodber at a rugby/executive training thing where he recounted his horror at opening the envelope for his first posting to see what he thought was the 'Royal Green Jackets' only to discover it was the 'Green Howards'.

I remember the Cyprus incident a quite clearly as I was in the DF at the time. A number of the Officers and NCOs in the Depot had been on various courses in Warminster etc. and the talk among them and the media was that it wasn't exactly 'bolt out of the blue behaviour' for that regiment?

[Vanguard]

Is everyone in a FOB not behind enemy lines and they'll all get cut off at some stage, except maybe by air?

In 2006, the Paras were deployed behind enemy lines to stop the Taliban taking strategic targets, this resulted in somecases sieges lasting weeks.

http://www.eliteukforces.info/parachute-regiment/parachute-regiment-history/operation-herrick-4.php

Sangin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GEaUdrAoig&feature=related

June 21 - 3 Para battle group responded to a request for assistance from Afghan officials, this time focusing on the town of Sangin. A Company, along with support elements, were airlifted by Chinook to Sangin, where they moved into a compound west of the town. This compound would become their home, and the center of a prolonged siege, as A Coy defended against repeated attacks by Taliban forces. The 90-or-so men of A Coy defended their base with .50 HMGs, GPMGs, LMGs, 81mm and 51mm mortars and Javelin anti-tank missiles, as well as their SA80 rifles. In the days and weeks to come, the British forces at Sangin were to suffer several tragic losses, including multiple KIAs.

Kajaki

Around 45 Paras (from Support Coy's Mortar platoon plus assorted troops), were flown to the Kajaki Dam to defend it against repeated Taliban attacks. The Dam's hydroelectric plant supplied large areas of Helmand with electrical power and was coveted by the insurgents. during their time at the dam, the Paras at Kajaki staved off repeated attacks by the Taliban.

Musa Qaleh

As detailed here, the Pathfinder Platoon was drawn into a protracted siege at Musa Qaleh. The Pathfinders were eventually relieved by Danish forces, who were themselves later reinforced by elements of the Royal Irish Rangers who arrived August 6th.
The troops at Musa Qaleh faced repeated attacks by a determined force of Taliban, dead set on ousting the British from their base.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article2240429.ece

Musa Qala, a besieged outpost deep in Taliban territory, holds a special place in the battle records of the Pathfinder platoon of 16 Air Assault Brigade – and of the Irishmen, Danes and other soldiers who braved face-to-face fighting to relieve them.

When a column at last got through to Musa Qala it found a band of dirty, skinny, heavily armed and bearded defenders. Thanks to luck and skill, none had been killed; but several men had died trying to bring help.

Yet the British public have heard almost nothing about what happened there more than a year ago, early on in the campaign in Afghanistan. Now the men are telling the story of the hidden siege.

[paul g]

Its unfair to describe recruits into the BA as jail fodder. People tend to forget that there are lots of differences between Ireland and the UK. There are lots of offences where you'd get locked up in the uk that in ireland you wouldn't, (which isn't always a bad thing) and the Uk has the highest rate of imprisonment in Europe.

Ireland doesn't have the same number of failed council estates that Wales, parts of London or the North of England has, (although they do exist). Levels of education in the uk, (unless you can pay for private school) are lower, cohesion in the family, even things like involvement in social and charitable organisations, levels of church membership, all produce differences in society and lots of people would claim that new Labour has abandoned the white working class in the UK.

There are very few 18 year olds in either the UK or Ireland who are unfamilar with drugs. To be honest, its socially probably more acceptable in some walks of life to do a line of coke then smoke a cigarette. Those who follow the newspapers will be familar with the fuss in the uk over banning legal highs as well as head shops in Ireland (there is one opposite the entrance to CBB), its an inescapable fact that drugs are a part of society in a way they weren't 20 years ago. An army has to reflect the society it recruits from, and a string of minor convictions, or smoking cannabis before you join up doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to turn out bad or evil or make a bad soldier.

The class system is also more prevelant there, not many sandhurst graduates from comprehensive schools, and that also affects recruiting, the army is not seen as a credible career by many in the uk, perhaps unfairly, but impressions count. It affects the recruitment of both officers and enlisted. i have a friend who is a former intelligence corps officer, who argues that many of the problems the BA have in Afghanistan and iraq is down to an anti-intellectual bias in the army, and that is down to the fact that many young people in his opinion saw the army as class ridden, and wouldn't consider it as a career.

Its also true that there are a lot of concerns about the numbers of former soldiers in prison in the uk, but a lot more effort is being put into aftercare and PTSD. I know somebody who works for the conservative party who in pretty involved in this area.

As for the inclusiveness of the BA I know enough former coldstream guardsmen to know that up till the 1980's they were lily white, and in fact had a song they used to sing when they met regiments that admitted non-whites, that was politically non-correct; thats all changed though, largely down to Prince Charles.

i worked with lots of people who had previously served in the British army, and they were really good people, and some of my best friends.

But then again the people I knew really had served in the british army

[concussion]

The military is a reflection of the society it serves. American, British, Irish and pretty much every other western society has an over representation of fat fcuks. To think the military would be exempt from that is ridiculous, it's not the fault of the organisation they can only do so much, the trained soldier expecially one destined for a two way firing range should have the cop on to go easy on the kebabs

I actually do expect the military to be exempt, due to the nature of the role. The military should be a reflection of the society; racially, religiously, socio-economically but not physically.

While I don't generally descend to petty insults, that post was a reply to Vanguards selectively posting Reservists in order to portray the Defence Forces.

[Jessup]

Their official role is to operate often behind enemy lines, last time was in FOBs in Helmand in 2006 where they cut off for weeks on end.

Is everyone in a FOB not behind enemy lines and they'll all get cut off at some stage, except maybe by air?

[RoyalGreenJacket]

Mostly now all grade 'A'. Why not all grade 'A'. You prove my point in your own post. Almost reaching full manning levels, even with all the 'mercenaries' from South Africa, Fiji, Nepal etc. The problems you do have would just be so much worse without the likes of guys like Beharry and those in the same cohort.

Certain regiments? Why not all regiments? A real case for 'Pic n Mix' when going overseas then if it's a certain regiment. We all know about the Royal Green Jackets role as the 'penal regiment'. I'd say if you asked the Jensen family they'd have liked the BA to do some 'Pic n Mix' before that deployment to Cyprus. It wasn't as if those lads hadn't some serious previous form prior to deployment.

It's not a luxury that you recruit from anywhere you can. It's a necessity. Even with such a 'luxury' either the individuals or the organisation (or both) is so dysfunctional that 8% of those in prison are ex services and most of them ex infantry.

You're the one clutching at straws RGJ. Like any sniper (which perfectly describes most of your posts here) you don't like counter sniping. The point here is both decent and credible. You're so brainwashed you can't accept any criticism of the BA at all.

must be 'cos i'm dysfunctional and may be about to join the other 8% of those in prison

our soldiers are part of an Army that has been engaged in aggressive combat operations almost constantly.

it would be nice if all we had to do was Peace Keeping operations but sadly it's a big bad world out there and our lads have been involved in a lot of it as belligerent forces. you guys are excellent at Peace Keeping operations and should be commended for this.

however that (being involved in combat particularly as part of the belligerent forces) changes a man and sometimes the tilt switch is triggered later on in life too. it's not an excuse - it's a fact.

if you ever see Aldershot or Colchester or Catterick on a Saturday night then you might wonder why we haven't got a much higher percentage in prison! one thing we can do well is fight.

anyhow - please explain "We all know about the Royal Green Jackets role as the 'penal regiment'" - because as a Rifleman in that battalion (and not the only one on this Forum) who knew Ford, Fowler and Pernell personally, drank with them often and served with them in the Falklands before we returned to Cyprus and they killed Louise Jensen - this 'penal regiment' role is new to me. maybe that is also because i am brainwashed with Red, Black and Green but who is the 'all' in 'we all know'?!

[CS Gass]

War Effort Hampered By Troops Too Unfit to Fight
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/au...besity-fitness

The military is a reflection of the society it serves. American, British, Irish and pretty much every other western society has an over representation of fat fcuks. To think the military would be exempt from that is ridiculous, it's not the fault of the organisation they can only do so much, the trained soldier expecially one destined for a two way firing range should have the cop on to go easy on the kebabs

[Vanguard]

From my own experience in the UK and every Irish officer that I know that has been on the PCBC and every Irish Sgt that I know who did the PSBC they say the same thing about the Paras and RM. They probably represent to the two extreme ethos in the BA. In the current landscape the latter is the appropriate one. I don't think even the most junior marine wouldn't have had the intelligence to analyse the ramifications and subsequent recruitment bonanza for the PIRA by the actions of Bloody Sunday. Both the Marine and Para would have had the combat skills to shoot the protesters, the difference would be the skills about whether they should shoot the protesters.

The theme of the OP is the supposed inferiority of the Irish DF 'Pic n Mix' system. I mean what idiot decided to send most agressive regiment in the BA into the Bogside. A bit of 'Pic n Mix' would have prevented a long drawn out campaign there.

When was the last time the Parachute Regiment fought behind enemy lines? Was it Arnhem? Where are the enemy lines that they are fighting behind in Iraq and Afghanistan? If there are such enemy lines, is everyone not behind them? The paradigm (get it?) has moved on. A one size fits all approach is a thing of the past. You have to 'Pic n Mix'

Their official role is to operate often behind enemy lines, last time was in FOBs in Helmand in 2006 where they cut off for weeks on end.

Your saying 1 paras SFSG role is not sophisticated ?

Bloody Sunday was nearly 40 yrs ago, obviously things have moved on since then.

The RMs were also involved in controversal shootings in NI.

[Jessup]

So your now qualified to offer a combat critique of the Parachute Regiment from your armchair and tell us their shortcomings on the modern battlefield ?

The Parachute regiment fights battles usually outnumbered and often behind enemy lines, the Irish army does cash escorts, prison duties and UN peace ops, lets leave it at that shall we.

From my own experience in the UK and every Irish officer that I know that has been on the PCBC and every Irish Sgt that I know who did the PSBC they say the same thing about the Paras and RM. They probably represent to the two extreme ethos in the BA. In the current landscape the latter is the appropriate one. I don't think even the most junior marine wouldn't have had the intelligence to analyse the ramifications and subsequent recruitment bonanza for the PIRA by the actions of Bloody Sunday. Both the Marine and Para would have had the combat skills to shoot the protesters, the difference would be the skills about whether they should shoot the protesters.

The theme of the OP is the supposed inferiority of the Irish DF 'Pic n Mix' system. I mean what idiot decided to send most agressive regiment in the BA into the Bogside. A bit of 'Pic n Mix' would have prevented a long drawn out campaign there.

When was the last time the Parachute Regiment fought behind enemy lines? Was it Arnhem? Where are the enemy lines that they are fighting behind in Iraq and Afghanistan? If there are such enemy lines, is everyone not behind them? The paradigm (get it?) has moved on. A one size fits all approach is a thing of the past. You have to 'Pic n Mix'

[Jessup]

limited pool to pick from?

we are almost reaching full manning levels and now only 'Grade A' applicants (explained in other threads) are bing accepted into certain regiments.

when i joined the British Army in 1989 - there were only 2 of us out of 6 from the Republic who passed selection and i'm pretty sure none of us were 'bottom feeders' as you put it.

the British Army has the luxury of being able to recruit from the UK, the Republic of Ireland and 54 other independent states including Canada, Australia and New Zealand - so tell me how that is a 'limited pool'?

seems only having 32 counties to recruit from is a pretty 'limited pool' compared to 56 countries.

you are clutching at straws here Jessup - come back to me when you have something decent and credible to snipe at us about.

Mostly now all grade 'A'. Why not all grade 'A'. You prove my point in your own post. Almost reaching full manning levels, even with all the 'mercenaries' from South Africa, Fiji, Nepal etc. The problems you do have would just be so much worse without the likes of guys like Beharry and those in the same cohort.

Certain regiments? Why not all regiments? A real case for 'Pic n Mix' when going overseas then if it's a certain regiment. We all know about the Royal Green Jackets role as the 'penal regiment'. I'd say if you asked the Jensen family they'd have liked the BA to do some 'Pic n Mix' before that deployment to Cyprus. It wasn't as if those lads hadn't some serious previous form prior to deployment.

It's not a luxury that you recruit from anywhere you can. It's a necessity. Even with such a 'luxury' either the individuals or the organisation (or both) is so dysfunctional that 8% of those in prison are ex services and most of them ex infantry.

You're the one clutching at straws RGJ. Like any sniper (which perfectly describes most of your posts here) you don't like counter sniping. The point here is both decent and credible. You're so brainwashed you can't accept any criticism of the BA at all.

[Vanguard]

I'm saying why take the risk? Unless it's needs must. If you had enough suitable applicants without criminal convictions then why in Gods name would you recruit a criminal instead of a non criminal. You recruit them because you have to, not because you choose to.

Funny I knew you'd mention the Falklands and that goes to the essence of you problem. It's a different world now. The opposition isn't some terrified conscript, in another uniform where you can cut off their ears and keep them as souvenirs. It's not 1982 anymore, the modern world requires more sophisticated soldiering and less brute force and ignorance. More the RM ethos and less the Para ethos.

I didn't mention intellectual prowess as a determinant of combat effectiveness. Even a complete thicko can have moral fibre and he's a better option than a smart thug. But there's the same point again. It's much more complex now than 'combat' skills and that goes the whole way down to the Pte soldier.

So your now qualified to offer a combat critique of the Parachute Regiment from your armchair and tell us their shortcomings on the modern battlefield ?

What do you think 1 Paras/Special forces support group role is if its not sophisticated ?

The Parachute regiment fights battles usually outnumbered and often behind enemy lines, the Irish army does cash escorts, prison duties and UN peace ops, lets leave it at that shall we.

[timhorgan]

REPLY- Vanguard.

This was in 2006 when the situation in Afghanistan rapidly changed from peacekeeping to counter insurgency and open warfare. British units had to rapidly reconfigure for a role they had not been deployed for and were lacking in equipment for such a role.[/QUOTE

]


Vanguard,RGJ,
Perhaps if someone took notice when a decent professional soldier such as Col. Nick Henderson of the Coldstream Guards resigns- I reiterate- there seem to be no lessons learnt. You both consider my contribution to be anti-British rhetoric but Nick Henderson, Tim Collins and many others are saying exactly the same thing. It just goes to prove that you cannot claim to be serious soldiers when for instance, RGJ quite clearly did not know what the CO of the Rifles Battle Group had been saying at RUSI.

And RGJ chooses not to reply to my posting about a failed composite op. near Sangin which comprised 30 men from 13 arms. But maybe it will help to stop him bragging.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/1501256/Colonel-quits-as-fears-grow-for-the-safety-of-his-men.html

And Col.Henderson was not alone in resigning- there were many others.

[concussion]

Physically some in the Irish army dont look up to soldiering.

http://picasaweb.google.com/OpsOfficer62RBN/Presidential_Guard_of_Honour_04Apr2010#5456394013242612626

http://picasaweb.google.com/OpsOffic...93083056904210

War Effort Hampered By Troops Too Unfit to Fight

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/aug/02/british-army-obesity-fitness