Not relevant to the "Where after Chad?" thread in Overseas

[Jessup]

Does it say how many had previous convictions before joining the military however??

No it doesn't but which is worse? Providing an environment for those who are already criminals to become more dangerous criminals or providing an environment for previously non convicted people to become criminals?

[Vanguard]

Sofa,
I have to hand it to RGJ here- for what I think must be the first time ever he seems to know what he is talking about.

Captain James Phillipson of the RHA was killed near Sangin in mid-2006. He was part of a QRF which responded to an ambush on another patrol.

The QRF was a composite BA force made up of 30 men from 13 different arms who had never worked as a fighting team.

The Oxford Coroner said that "totally inadequate resources had led to the unit being out-gunned by a bunch of renegades and a lack of basic equipment" Even the BA Board of Inquiry stated:

"Phillipson......had been killed as a result of poor tactical decision-makinga lack of SOP's and lack of equipment". The CO, Maj. Bristow told the Inquiry he had issued no SOP,s and carried out no rehearsals when he set up the QRF. He did not brief his patrol on the proposed route or any tactical procedures. The patrol also left without Bowman radios.

So, RGJ does know what it means to work with composite groups.

See below as to how it should be done. These are the orders by the Zimbabwe Republic Police to police Easter Church Services at Anglican Churches in Harare last weekend- there are now 2 factions - 1 pro-Mugabe and 1 independent. It just shows that some of the professionalism of the old BSAP still lingers....

http://cryptome.org/zimbabwe-ban.pdf

Tim Horgan

To be quite honest, going on what you quoted the fact the Captain(RIP) had been killed doesn't seem to have much to do with the fact the QRF was a mixed bunch.

There was no SOP's set out and no rehearsals carried out when the QRF was put together. The patrol was never briefed on the route they were going to travel and were never given a brief on "actions on..." along with the fact they didn't bring Bowmans.

That's nothing to do with them being a mixed bunch, it's down to a piss poor performance from the Major.[/QUOTE]









REPLY



This was in 2006 when the situation in Afghanistan rapidly changed from peacekeeping to counter insurgency and open warfare. British units had to rapidly reconfigure for a role they had not been deployed for and were lacking in equipment for such a role.

[concussion]

The article in the Sunday Times this week says it all. 8% of the prison population in the UK are ex services and most of them are ex Infantry.

Does it say how many had previous convictions before joining the military however??

[Vanguard]

Speaking to British officers in KFOR they would have loved a 'pic n mix' approach to overseas as their system of bringing an entire unit means all the scumbags and wasters get brought along too. We get a chance to screen those out and they never get on the plane.

We do our 'pic n mix' prior to them joining the DF in the first place as well, not like the UK where the standard is much lower including accepting applicants with criminal convictions including drug convictions. The article in the Sunday Times this week says it all. 8% of the prison population in the UK are ex services and most of them are ex Infantry. I'll take our 'pic n mix' anytime over your 'ant n dec'.

Standard much lower ? What evidence do you have for that claim ?

Certainly not in terms of basic recruit fitness and training.

You speak for British officiers as well ?

[timhorgan]

Tim you were a copper, Jungle is an experienced soldier who is amongst other things an Afghanistan vet? how do you feel qualified to lecture him on what soldiering is?

CS, Good question.

By coincidence my experience in Rhodesia was just ending 30 years ago just as the ARW was being formed. I well remember while back on leave in Ireland having discussions with friends- and relatives- in the Army. I think that there was general agreement in Ireland at the time for the need of the ARW. I also quite clearly remember that one of the problems anticipated and to be guarded against was that the ARW would over time be tempted to identify itself with other Special Forces rather than the Army itself, or indeed with the people. If I remember correctly one of the actions implemented to prevent this is that ARW members would return to their original units before too long and thereby also transfer their skills throughout the general Army. I hope that this is still the case. I consider that the present cult status accorded to the SAS in the UK is unhealthy and I would hope that in Ireland we never see that situation arising.


As for my own experience, the BSAP was a para-military organisation and enjoyed the position of " Right of the Line" and formally took precedence over all the Army Units. The toast was to "The Regiment". When Robert Mugabe won the election and became Prime Minister our Commissioner went to offer his resignation. Mugabe refused to accept it and stated that- dspite a war that had cost many thousands of lives he had no problem with the BSAP. His only request was that a small element of the South African Police at BSAP HQ be returned to SA.

When the ceasefire was being implemented I was fortunate to have dealings with the NZ contingent of the Monitoring Force which had a Fijian element attached. The security situation was quite precarious and I took great pride when the Fijian CO, on learning that I was Irish, told me that he was looking forward to working with us as he had served in the Lebanon along with the Irish and he could not speak more highly of them.

After the Somalia incident the Canadians to their credit had an Inquiry and addressed some of the matters relating to an Army within society in general-I have tagged the report below which makes interesting reading. My own preference is still for the Swiss model which Michael Collins favoured- a proper Citizen Army with professional pride in itself but with no airs and graces.

http://www.dnd.ca/somalia/somaliae.htm

The top man at the time in Canada who was severely reprimanded happened to be a certain General Jean de Chastelain.



Tim Horgan

[CS Gass]

Tim you were a copper, Jungle is an experienced soldier who is amongst other things an Afghanistan vet? how do you feel qualified to lecture him on what soldiering is?

[timhorgan]

Jungle,
My attention was first drawn to your post where you stated a preference for

"robust coalition ops. rather than UN "GIGS".

I looked back and found previous disparaging references about the UN from you such as

"Blue-Helmet-War-Tourists-Gigs".

You claim to have 25+years military experience and you have chosen to post on this site-Irish Military Online. I therefore assume that you must know that the Irish Army deploys overseas only on UN-approved missions with a "triple-lock" mechanism. Yet your posts have a not so subliminal anti-UN character, and quite frankly have a distinct whiff of the culture that permeated the Canadian Army op. in Somalia.

I happen to believe that the profession of Soldiering is one of the most noble callings. Much is expected from anyone who wears the uniform of a Western Democracy. The Irish Army, representing a neutral Republic and the will of the Irish people has distinguished itself on UN Operations and we are proud of it.

So, when you come on here with your macho posturing - which, to my mind is actually distinctly un-soldierly and unprofessional- do not expect all of us to acquiesce in your rather parochial viewpoint.

Perhaps the difference between the Irish Army and Canadian Army is best summed up on this site- just look at your tagline from John Diefenbaker and Hedgehogs from Michael Collins. Give me Collins any day. And Captain John Ging rather than your supine CDS.

[Jessup]

yeah - good example of where an Irish DF "pic'n'mix" battalion wouldn't stand a chance sofa, and Afghan is much worse - like I said - pick another trouble spot!

Speaking to British officers in KFOR they would have loved a 'pic n mix' approach to overseas as their system of bringing an entire unit means all the scumbags and wasters get brought along too. We get a chance to screen those out and they never get on the plane.

We do our 'pic n mix' prior to them joining the DF in the first place as well, not like the UK where the standard is much lower including accepting applicants with criminal convictions including drug convictions. The article in the Sunday Times this week says it all. 8% of the prison population in the UK are ex services and most of them are ex Infantry. I'll take our 'pic n mix' anytime over your 'ant n dec'.

[Jessup]

It's far from the essential point Tim. Remember the UN is a political organisation, not a military organisation. Force Commanders and other senior appointments are selected primarily for political/diplomatic reasons, not ability. You would like to think that the selection would be based on the most capable officers from the troop contributing countries but that's not the case. Thankfully, that is the case with Nato or EU led forces.

The French failed to hold any really significant appointments in UNIFIL I even though they have very capable officers but their 'history' in Lebanon went against them. On the other hand some appointments in UNIFIL were designated 'Irish Only' by the IDF (not the UN) as they weren't prepared to deal with muppets from some of the other third world contingents. If it was up to the UN there would be an almost quota system where each country would get their turn regardless of ability.

[timhorgan]

Jungle made a fair point, who here wouldnt rather serve under the command of a western army? its not racism its honesty

CS,
I would assume that the UN Military Advisors at HQ would only appoint professionally qualified Mission Commanders. There would be no problem with any individual preferring to serve under "Western" Commanders but then they should stay at home and not serve in UN MULTINATIONAL forces. That is the essential point.

[Buck]

why would anyone have a problem with serving under anyone else as long as their leadership is competent? as long as the job gets done well and professionally, there should be no issue.

[Jungle]

They'd be fine just as long as they dont order all ranks to wear the Canadian tuxedo when not in uniform

Canadian Tuxedo !!!! Haven't heard that in a long time !!! If it's any consolation, the jean jacket has pretty much disappeared !!

CS Gass, Craghopper, Hello Alaska, thanks for the comments. I am not in the business of slagging anyone, but we all have skeletons in the closet; if timhorgan wishes to drag them out, then he should drag them all out !!

There is no doubt in my mind that the Irish DF and CF could work together in OPS and do a good job. In Timor we were in the same Battalion, but in different areas; however the time I spent with your guys in Australia was good, and there were no problems.

[Hello Alaska]

Why would any Irish soldiers have problems working with Jungle or any of his colleagues?

The Canucks are one of the best armed forces in the world, it'd be foolish for us not to want to serve with them.

[Jungle]

[
Why, it is relevant-the Irish Army has a superb reputation to live up to. We value it. Not any old bod can come along and expect to lead it.

A superb reputation no doubt; my only contact with the Irish DF was during work-up trg for INTERFET in Australia, but the members of your Wing did not seem to mind my lesser reputation when they asked my advice about patrolling techniques...

[
Yes, it seemed to be a black-and-white matter for the Canadian Army also. Ku Klux Klan and all - Pity.

Funny, in my previous post I was talking about the very guy portrayed in your link with the KKK on the back...

[
I have no issue either -but I would still prefer to believe Captain John Ging who was on the spot at the time. For the sake of balance he should have gone to Gaza.Your CDS lacks savoir-faire as we say in Quebec.
Ca va pas pour nous Irlandais!.

Who's "we in Québec" ??

[
Vive La Quebec Libre!!! I think that was the great French Republican Charles De Gaulle.

Actually, it's "le" not "la"...
De Gaule was meddling in internal politics, which was not his business. France has abandonned us once 250 years ago, we don't need them now... we're doing just fine.

[
Do I detect another little bit of racism there? Are the Canadians better than the Sri Lankans - at Ice hockey maybe but certainly not cricket.

Wow, I am accused of being a racist by a former member of the Rhodesian police...

During the period of the Second Chimurenga (a.k.a. Rhodesian Bush War) in the late 1960s and 1970s, the BSAP formed an important part of the white minority government's fight against black nationalist guerrillas.

My comment about the Sri Lankans refers to my recent tour in Haiti, where we shared our AO with a Sri-Lanka Infantry Battalion; I am not saying they are not good, but they do not use the same planning process and staff system we use, which makes for interesting inter-actions, and their general posture was more aggressive then ours.

Here are some links for your enjoyment:

Irish army buying Israeli bullets

Irish troops in Eritrea sex scandal

[sofa]

The Americans would find it all so British and quant , if it was not so serious