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  • AIFVs as Cavalry

    I was having an interesting chat with someone today about the importance of armed recce, armour protection and cross country mobility.
    Apart from the standard yawn inducing lament about the state of Irish defence we also managed to discuss some new idea's, one was the use of low cost tracked AIFVs operating with a Scorpion type light tank in cavalry tasks such as recce and flank security.
    To equip such a unit for each brigade might be an absurdity (in this country) but it may in the medium term a very viable solution to the lack of protection and offensive mobility found in our current battalion group earmarked for EURRF/UN standby duties, since the Scorpions would only need homogenisation to the upgraded turret systems and dieselisation, while a cheap and well proven AIFV like the FMC/GD AIFV costs around E80,000 per unit.
    The pairing of 30 of this type of vehicle with an enhanced Scorpion fleet would not constitute an armoured force by any means but may be well suited to Cavalry and infantry support roles.
    Another suggestion, mooted by an Artillery officer talking to a group of us spectating a shoot a few years back was to replace the Scorpion fleet with Warrior type APCs (About E2.5m ea, as opposed to E6m for a Challenger 2)

    Just a thought
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  • #2
    The Army is ahead of you on the Scorpion bit, an upgrade has been selected, but was delayed by financial constraints.

    There is a rumour going about from usually highly reliable sources, that the UK MoD offered Ireland a load (~300) of surplus CVRTs (scimitars and spartans apparently) gratis earlier this year, and it was declined.
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    With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

    Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

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    • #3
      maybe if we get them painted them black , fit a drinks cabinet and call them ministerial transport the minister will buy a few,he likes buying new gifts for his collegues he does
      Anyone need a spleen ?

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      • #4
        I heard about the diesel power pack being selected for the scorpion, any idea if there was anything else included in the upgrade?
        For instance how readily available is 76mm ammunition?
        "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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        • #5
          OH and was this moved? I swear I put it in the general section
          "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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          • #6
            Out of interest what are they going to replace the scorpion with???
            Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato

            "Where there is no guidance the people fall, but in abundance of counselors there is victory" Proverbs 11-14
            http://munsterfireandrescue.com

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            • #7
              http://www.scorpiontank.co.uk/

              This company, Repaircraft PLC, are offering upgrades for Scorpions to 'S2000' standard. This includes composite armour capable of keeping out 14.5mm rounds, a new engine and a 90mm gun if required. Their S2000 Peacekeeper upgrade supposedly has even better protection. They also supply 76mm ammo.


              The 76mm was supposedly a good infantry support weapon, dunno what it's AT capability is like. I'd suggest a 60mm hyper-velocity gun, the Israelis once marketed one. It is supposed to give the same AT performace as a 90mm without the weight penalty.
              "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

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              • #8
                there is as far as i know no HEAT and clearly no APFSDS-T rounds for the such a low velocity cannon as the 76mm, it fires HESH, though, which would be sutiable against light vehicles, but not MBT.

                It is a reconnaissance vehicle, no more no less, so it wouldn't be expected to go up against MBT, the temptation would be to go for a 90mm ( since the british and belgium are phasing out their scorpions over the next decade) which would be a good fit for infantry support, being able to fire HE and cannister, along with HEAT, but the problem is lack of armoured protection on the basic vehicle, though if the vehicle serves overseas i would have thought, since the 20mm on the AML has been i believe sucessful, to opt for a scimitar type conversion, though something in the 30/35mm range.

                then again, if you want a vehicle that will have an excellent anti-tank capability and provide excellent infantry support, with premium crew surviability its a MBT. the Leopard 2 second hand would be a lot cheaper than an Challenger 2.

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                • #9
                  The 76mm is being kept. Recce vehicles generally try to avoid getting mixed up with enemy armour. If needs be, that's what Javelin is for.

                  Upgrades include diesel, new transmission, rubber track pads.

                  Other items being looked at (not sure if all were selected) were, TI imaging, applique armour, upgraded NBC, plus other sundries.
                  .
                  .
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                  With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

                  Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The CVR(T) is just about proofed against small arms fire, and its limited to infantry support at 1k+ for that reason, Ironically the M113 derived AIFV has better armour protection than both the CVR(T) and the United defense/FMC Lynx (another M113 derivative which carried out the same role as the Scorpion, its based on M113 parts rather than being a straight upgrade) which is why I suggested it for the infantry support role, although I still believe it should be primarily a cav vehicle.

                    The Scimitar turret definitely seems preferable to large calibre guns for a recce vehicle and it would still be formidable as an infantry support weapon, it would seem a logical weapon on an AML replacement.
                    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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                    • #11
                      As a matter of interest the Rarden 30mm as fitted to the Scimitar and Warrior vehicles in BA service, is due to be withdrawn from use from at least the Warrior as it is not up to the standard of a modern 30mm weapon (say Boeing Bushmaster), therefore I don't think it would make much sense as a re-fit.

                      As an aside, the Giat 90mm, as fitted to the AML H90, is capable of being upgraded to fire APFSDS-T rounds.


                      IAS

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                      • #12
                        There is talk of fitting the Warrior with a 40mm cannon that fires telescopic rounds.
                        "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

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                        • #13
                          True the germans are reputedly experimenting with a 50mm gun, and the IMI 60mm was fitted i think to some vehicles in Chile,

                          C-Q, the lynx is retired from Canadian service, i believe that some of them were sold to Iran, which caused a fuss with the Americans in the early 1990's. Though, it appears from what i;ve read that the LAV-25 performed very well in the recent war, and possibly a version of the Piranha and a lighter vehicle like the Scarab/Fennek, would revolutionise the Cavalry's reconnaissance role.

                          IAS, APFSDS-T in 90mm, the only problem is that a vehicles with at sort of armoured protection shouldn't be in a position to fire that sort of round, the bad guys do shoot back, i am a firm believer in the battleshipVs Battlecruiser arguement. As for the javelin, they are an excellent weapon, but are only part of the solution, however, there is a requirement iMHO for a direct fire support vehicle with excellent surviability to support ground troops.

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                          • #14
                            I never even knew that the Lynx was in Canadian Service, according to Jane's it's only in service with the Netherlands.
                            Does anyone know anything about the Stingray II light tank?
                            "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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                            • #15
                              Paul G, I agree, the DF need something with a 105/120, the question is what. Lots of choices, I suppose wheeled would be favoured (assuming no MBTs, though Leo 2A4s seem "cheap"), however, this is to be decided in 2005 is it not?

                              Back to the 90, is there not an arguement to say that the upgrade would provide a capability to 1) "shoot and scoot", 2) defend itself? It can never hope to stand head on with the big guys, but something may be better than nothing or HESH?


                              IAS

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