Parachuting

[BoonDoc]

My thoughts on the need for airborne troops are somewhere in the middle ground.

In the decade or so that I spent in the US Army was in airborne units. We jumped a lot and spent a lot of time and money on airborne operations. But to be honest, as soon as we hit the ground we were just the run-of-the-mill ground troops.

Airborne training is just a way to get to the battlefield. Time and training should be spent on ground manoeuvres and training for events after the jump.

Now that I am living here in Ireland I am trying to get an understanding on how things work in the Defense Forces. If there is limited money I would prefer that my unit was really well trained and have money to that effect. If money for training was spent on airborne operations then my unit would not be as effective.

What is the possibility that the IDF would need to jump? Even in the US military the chance that we would ever jump into combat was extremely remote.

[paul g]

Spot on- but not only weapons- we will never use the Equit School- out it goes- we wont ever need
para trained people for military purposes- so lets not waste the money

We will never need the 105- so why waste time training people on it and buying ammunition for it.
.

You could say the same about 81mm mortars, not one fired in anger in the last ten years to the best of my knowledge. Just think the money that was wasted on sending, lets say an 81mm mortar instructors from the vikings, on a course overseas.

[hedgehog]

You could say the same about 81mm mortars, not one fired in anger in the last ten years to the best of my knowledge. Just think the money that was wasted on sending, lets say an 81mm mortar instructors from the vikings, on a course overseas.

True Paul- but we never fire any weapons in anger

thats what amatuers do- we fire them deliberatley and with professionalism.

the 81 has been used consisntly in the Leb- firing illum- I wasnt in Liberia nor Chad

so I cant speak on that front- however the 81 is an amazing deterrent.

But I see what your attempting to do- 81 Instructor courses (usually DFTC in the IWW)

are not comparable with Para Course

for one thing- for me to apply for the 81 mm Instructors course

I didnt have to be a member of the Crumlin 81 mm Mortar club

[DeV]

I didnt have to be a member of the Crumlin 81 mm Mortar club

The reason they may have to join PCM is that PCM own the rigs etc.

[hedgehog]

The reason they may have to join PCM is that PCM own the rigs etc.

One joins PCM mainly to have a log book should one want to jump in civy street after

qualifying-

My original point stands

[bunny shooter]

Whats this "We" business paleface?......

What my lack of facial suntan has to do with this I just don't know

We as in those of us in the DF who don't feel the DF should be subsidising people like you to enjoy a hobby that has not or is ever likely to have any real relevance or requirement to fulfil your military job specs now or in the future and we as in the taxpayer who are being screwed enough as it is, both groups of which I a member of

[ex pat 007]

We will never need the 105- so why waste time training people on it and buying ammunition for it.

Dont get me wrong... I'm a big fan of mortars, but I would have imagined a battery of 105s would be part of the organic fires for a deployed Bn. task force.

[Knucklehead]

I dont believe PCM own any of the round parachutes.
Anyway how much does a round of HE for a 105 cost, and then the truck to deliver it, and the driver to drive the truck and the bodies to secure the glen and the goons to shoot the damn thing and imagine its a battery firing for a couple of days. Wow! How much fo that?The fact is to qualify 30 student(5 jumps a piece) in Static line parachuting from a heli can be achieved with 3hrs of flighttime, compare that to surveying goats in mayo by heli?. The majority of the the course is drills and packing parachutes. A course where you might have to earn your badge, might just breed a bit of pride or a sense of achivement in individuals...but you couldnt have any of that stuff floatin around in this organisation,,,next they will be talkin about esprit de |Corps and the likes, ye know all that stuff we hear in tha leadership seminars and read about in de military books. Hooooaw legs

[Tango_Charlie]

(Just kidding lads.FOO is a bloody tough course)
(FOOs are not all officers.NCOs do it too)

FOO course is open to all ranks, although having previously completed one of the technical artillery courses (battery tech or regimental survey) is a major plus. The Gnrs on the course are trained and tested to the same standard as the officers and the NCO's. On the exercises during the course the Gnr's are just as likely to be in command appointments as anyone else.

[Tango_Charlie]

Snipers are trained in FOO.

Not entirely accurate craghopper. They are trained in some of the drills but nowhere near the same standard as an MFC or a FOO. Correct me if i'm wrong but i dont think snipers ever actually get to call in live fire as part of their course.

Although snipers do tend to find calling for fire quite simple with their above average map reading skills but to be fair to MFC's and FOO's there is a lot more to it than just 'Grid, Alt, Direction'. If i was an infantry soldier in the height of shit, when it came to a danger close mission i would feel much safer knowing a FOO was controlling the fire rather than a sniper.

Then again i'd rather have a sniper over a Cav recce-head.

[SwiftandSure]

I wouldn't see any point in training infantry for parachuting on any large scale. I would see a point to small specialist teams having the skill set though.

As a point of interest, (without diverting the thread) I remember when I was training in EW in the Signals that there was a team called LEWT (Light Electronic Warfare Team). Their job apparently, was to parachute within the enemy's AO and deploy man portable radio jammers so as to disrupt enemy comms.
The idea was, that as soon as they'd deployed the jammer, they'd tab away with the speed of a thousand gazelles. Then the enemy would trianglate the jammer, close in on it, and remove/destroy it. By which time, the LEWT would have tabbed to another location and deployed another jammer and so the game of cat and mouse continues.....

They'd also be listening into En comms and intel gathering.

Would the DF have something similiar as part of their EW capability, if not a dedicated team for it?

[Craghopper]

Not entirely accurate craghopper. They are trained in some of the drills but nowhere near the same standard as an MFC or a FOO. Correct me if i'm wrong but i dont think snipers ever actually get to call in live fire as part of their course.

Although snipers do tend to find calling for fire quite simple with their above average map reading skills but to be fair to MFC's and FOO's there is a lot more to it than just 'Grid, Alt, Direction'. If i was an infantry soldier in the height of shit, when it came to a danger close mission i would feel much safer knowing a FOO was controlling the fire rather than a sniper.

Then again i'd rather have a sniper over a Cav recce-head.

Snipers as part of the trg learn how to call in arty/mortor fire.. Did it myself many moons ago.

But we didn't actually call any in..FYI, just trained how to do it.

[RoyalGreenJacket]

I wouldn't see any point in training infantry for parachuting on any large scale. I would see a point to small specialist teams having the skill set though.

As a point of interest, (without diverting the thread) I remember when I was training in EW in the Signals that there was a team called LEWT (Light Electronic Warfare Team). Their job apparently, was to parachute within the enemy's AO and deploy man portable radio jammers so as to disrupt enemy comms.
The idea was, that as soon as they'd deployed the jammer, they'd tab away with the speed of a thousand gazelles. Then the enemy would trianglate the jammer, close in on it, and remove/destroy it. By which time, the LEWT would have tabbed to another location and deployed another jammer and so the game of cat and mouse continues.....

They'd also be listening into En comms and intel gathering.

Would the DF have something similiar as part of their EW capability, if not a dedicated team for it?

the LEWT teams are still going strong mate and they are still 'airborne'.

i worked extensively with them last year in Wales. they still carry a lot of kit into battle, even now in Afghan, although their airborne role is not being exploited we still need this military skill for small specialist units such as this.

[fiannoglach]

The reason they may have to join PCM is that PCM own the rigs etc.

PCM does not own the rigs.

On the last course, outside of the ARW, there were no Snipers, FOO or Recce types. Also there was a course in July for naval cadets.

[hedgehog]

Ah Naval Cadets

lets see we can spend the sparse resources on necessities such as better protection- more training

better conditions or we can spend the sparse resources on training naval cadets to parachute.