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  • Strength & Establishment of the DF

    Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    (unlike the Irish DF who are now under established with no recruitment and no promotion).
    The authorised strength is now 10,000, establishment is 11,500. The strength hasn't been at that figure for a good number of year.

    They are in the process of changing CS4 (our equivalent of the US TO&E).

  • #2
    Originally posted by DeV View Post
    The authorised strength is now 10,000, establishment is 11,500. The strength hasn't been at that figure for a good number of year.

    They are in the process of changing CS4 (our equivalent of the US TO&E).
    wrong Dev, "the strength of the Permanent Defence Force as at 31 May 2010 was 9,809. Within the available resources, the Government is committed to maintaining the strength of the Permanent Defence Force at a level of 10,000 all ranks, for which Government approval was secured in the context of Budget 2010."

    Source: www.defence.ie

    so you are currently almost 1,700 men under establishment and almost 200 men under strength and still not recruiting or promoting whilst despite what illusion Paul G is under, we are still recruiting, still promoting, still over strength and still over subscribed with recruits - some of whom are from Ireland and will be deploying to Afghanistan later this year. lets hope they all come back safely.
    RoyalGreenJacket
    Commander in Chief
    Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 2 August 2010, 11:21.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
      wrong Dev, "the strength of the Permanent Defence Force as at 31 May 2010 was 9,809. Within the available resources, the Government is committed to maintaining the strength of the Permanent Defence Force at a level of 10,000 all ranks, for which Government approval was secured in the context of Budget 2010."

      Source: www.defence.ie

      so you are currently almost 1,700 men under establishment and almost 200 men under strength and still not recruiting or promoting whilst despite what illusion Paul G is under, we are still recruiting, still promoting, still over strength and still over subscribed with recruits - some of whom are from Ireland and will be deploying to Afghanistan later this year. lets hope they all come back safely.

      I'm not wrong RGJ. Authorised strength and strength are 2 different things.

      The authorised strength is the 10,000 (the figure that Government has committed at maintaining the strength at - ie the max DF is premitted to have).

      The strength is 9,809.

      The DF have been underestablishment for long before the recruitment ban came in.

      The establishment has been 11,500 since the reorg of the DF around 1998.

      When the White Paper of Defence was published in 2000, the authorised strength was made 10,500 plus the provision of up to 250 in training.

      That provision for 250 in training was withdrawn in June 2003.

      The recruitment ban only came into effect on 27 March 2009.

      So get your facts right!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
        the Irish DF are already 1,700 under establishment and if this is getting rewritten into the 'CS4' (as i have been told on here previously), then this will effectively mean a cut of almost 15% in the Irish DF if this happens, so i don't think you can just brush over that figure.
        a 15% stealth cut in the establishment of the Irish DF is certainly worth noting.
        The DF has had regular cuts in numbers since 1998

        Pre 1998:
        Strength was around 12,750. Can find the establishment figure but I think it was around13,000.

        1998:
        We got rid of a lot of people through a VER scheme (over 1,500 people, which resulted in payroll savings of IR£15 million annually, half of those savings were invested in badly needed equipment (equipment has drastically improved since 1998)). The VER scheme was targeted a certain groups (eg those of medically poor fitness and those of certain cadet classes (in other to remove of "hump" of officers at captain and commandant (major) rank. Those cuts IMHO did a lot of help the DF what it is now. It was part of a major reorganisation that produced a more deployable field than garrison based army and was our "peace dividend". At the same time a policy of continious recruitment was introduced (I think this was a first for the DF) and retirement ages were reduced mainly in order to lower the age profile of the DF (and again it helped greatly). In 1998, the new establishment was set at 11,500.

        2000/2001:The first every White Paper on Defence was published in Feb 2000. In this the Government, set an authorised strength of 10,500 (to be achieved by the end of 2001), all of the payroll savings of IR£ 20 million annually were reinvested in the DF. In addition, the COS was authorised to have an additional 250 soldier in training at any one time. In reality, this made the authorised strength of the DF 10,750. In 1999 the strength was around 10,900. So there was a cut of around 400 of which 250 were replaced. When this was introduced the effect was that we were 6.5% (750) under establishment, this level of manning was maintained.

        June 2003
        The provision for 250 in training was withdrawn in June 2003. This made the authorised strength 10,500. This level of manning was maintained so we were 9% (1,000) under establishment.

        March 2009 The public service recruitment and promotion ban came into force in March 2009.
        The recruitment ban is to extend to December 2010 after that who knows?

        July 2009
        A review group on public service numbers - "Bord Snip" (report published in July 2009) recommended cuts of 520 over 2-3 years by natural wastage and by not filling non-essential vacancies. In effect, this would mean an authorised strength of 9,980 (14% under establishment). The Government made a commitment to maintain the strength of the DF at 10,000 (13% under establishment).

        November 2009
        Strength was 10,081 (80% of Bord Snip recommendation) in 5 months. This is 24% underestablishment.


        As we have seen the DF are currently looking at CS4, it isn't clear as to if this will set a new establishment for the DF (ie lower the figure from 11,500) or if it will keep the establishment figure and just identify the posts that will not be filled.



        I wouldn't exactly call it a "stealth cut" it is well publised, but you are quite correct RGJ it is worth noting!

        There difference is that the cuts in the PDF numbers have already been made, there won't be anymore (current Government policy). Unlike the British Army fortunately the Government/DOD & DF haven't had to resort to redundancy and all bar the VER has been through natural wastage (this isn't "Brit bashing"!).

        The DF has been called upon to deduce its numbers by the Government, they may not necessarily agree with them and it may mean those that are left have to work harder but they do as ordered.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by paul g View Post
          The Df is not 1700 understrenght. Establishment is 10500.

          I have explaine this look at post 22 about the ammunition problems Challenger 2 is going to be retired or reduced to token status, it always has been prime candidate for the chop
          not according to Dev:

          Originally posted by DeV View Post
          The authorised strength is now 10,000, establishment is 11,500. The strength hasn't been at that figure for a good number of year.

          They are in the process of changing CS4 (our equivalent of the US TO&E).
          you will find the current strength of the Irish Df is 9,800 (as at 31 May 10)* - this is 1,700 under establishment as i pointed out, and if they do re-write your CS4 as i am told they will - then you will effectively have a cut of about 15% from your establishment - fact.

          if you are happy to ignore this stealth cut then i suggest you keep your head in the sand.

          *source: www.defence.ie
          Last edited by DeV; 14 August 2010, 13:50.
          RGJ

          ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

          The Rifles

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DeV View Post
            The DF has had regular cuts in numbers since 1998

            I wouldn't exactly call it a "stealth cut" it is well publised, but you are quite correct RGJ it is worth noting!
            fair one Dev - but the fact is you have had your cuts and while the figures are well publicised - it is not seen as a cut, although in effect it is a cut as your establishment is being reduced by about 15%.

            i wouldn't need to point this out but the likes of Paul G seem blind to these facts and for his benefit - they are worthy of note.

            likewise our cuts are government / budget driven and beyond our control. everyone wants a bigger and better army otherwise you wouldn't have lads like us in forums like this.

            we can only work with whatever money the treasury gives us - some things will have to go, including personnel - but that applies to the British Forces, the US Forces, and also as you can see - the Irish Forces.
            RGJ

            ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

            The Rifles

            Comment


            • #7
              Your correct RGJ it is 1700 under establishment.

              Changing CS4 will change establishment not strength, therefore it isn't another cut it is making sure we have the right combination of ranks, grades etc within the 10,000.

              I disagree in it being a "stealth cut" the cut has already been made (people haven't been replaced when they have left) and it is Government policy that the PDF strength will be 10,000.

              Comment


              • #8
                I'd love for the Government to actually release the numbers in each Bn, Squadron etc.

                It'd be an awful eye opener.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DeV View Post
                  Your correct RGJ it is 1700 under establishment.

                  Changing CS4 will change establishment not strength, therefore it isn't another cut it is making sure we have the right combination of ranks, grades etc within the 10,000.

                  I disagree in it being a "stealth cut" the cut has already been made (people haven't been replaced when they have left) and it is Government policy that the PDF strength will be 10,000.
                  lol ok the Dev, i'll take the hit on the 'stealth', but it is a cut that which has gone relatively un-noticed but it still represents a cut of about 15% - something Paul G obviously wasn't aware of.

                  anyhow, i think if any army published their exact figures of units like you say Dev - we would all be in for a big eye opener! maybe that is what we, and the governments with the purse strings actually need.
                  RGJ

                  ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

                  The Rifles

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
                    lol ok the Dev, i'll take the hit on the 'stealth', but it is a cut that which has gone relatively un-noticed but it still represents a cut of about 15% - something Paul G obviously wasn't aware of.

                    anyhow, i think if any army published their exact figures of units like you say Dev - we would all be in for a big eye opener! maybe that is what we, and the governments with the purse strings actually need.
                    I was perfectly aware that the authorised strenght of the Df for the past ten years has been around 10500, and with the new CS4 will be around 10,000. The Df has always been about 10% understrenght from its establishment.

                    The military authorities have always perfered a paper establishment of three brigades that they have no real hope of achieving.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      so, as i was saying all along - you will be facing a cut of about 15% no matter what way disguise it.

                      smell the coffee.
                      RGJ

                      ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

                      The Rifles

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Nope, the authorised strenght will go from 10,500 to 10,000, nothing like 15%, and there will be a more realistic CS4.

                        Some major projects have been delayed, but not cancelled

                        Budget will go down, but not by much.
                        Last edited by paul g; 14 August 2010, 16:47.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Hello Alaska View Post
                          I'd love for the Government to actually release the numbers in each Bn, Squadron etc.

                          It'd be an awful eye opener.
                          They did for RDF last year. The same question was asked again this year in the Dail but the answer was " The info will be forwarded to the Deputy".

                          I'd love to see that info as well.

                          Same for PDF numbers
                          "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by paul g View Post
                            Nope, the authorised strenght will go from 10,500 to 10,000, nothing like 15%, and there will be a more realistic CS4.
                            Originally posted by DeV View Post
                            The authorised strength is now 10,000, establishment is 11,500. The strength hasn't been at that figure for a good number of year.

                            ...Your correct RGJ it is 1700 under establishment...
                            No - 11,500 to 10,000 = 13.04%

                            13.04% is very much like 15% to me.
                            RGJ

                            ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

                            The Rifles

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by paul g View Post
                              I was perfectly aware that the authorised strenght of the Df for the past ten years has been around 10500, and with the new CS4 will be around 10,000. The Df has always been about 10% understrenght from its establishment.
                              The authorised strength is now 10000. For the last 7 years it has be 10500.

                              For the 2-3 years after the reorg of the PDF, the DF was at its establishment figure.

                              It is only since 2003, that the DF has been 10% understrength.

                              The military authorities have always perfered a paper establishment of three brigades that they have no real hope of achieving.
                              It isn't a DF decision, it is Government on the advice of the Minister (who gets his advice from DOD and COS).

                              The lapsed White Paper issued by the Minister on behalf of Government stated 3 brigades, the new White Paper may change that?!


                              Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
                              so, as i was saying all along - you will be facing a cut of about 15% no matter what way disguise it.

                              smell the coffee.
                              We aren't facing it RGJ, it has happened since March 2009. All that will change is that the establishment will/may change.

                              Originally posted by paul g View Post
                              Nope, the authorised strenght will go from 10,500 to 10,000, nothing like 15%, and there will be a more realistic CS4.
                              The authorised strength is currently 10,000 and has been for a good while.

                              Budget will go down, but not by much.
                              Don't count your chickens

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