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    SwiftandSure
    Closed Account

  • SwiftandSure
    replied
    Originally posted by DeV View Post
    The ACF isn't a reserve it is a army run youth organisation!
    This is true, but the model in comparison to the RDF is similar and IMO better run. At least the ACF were even given tasks within the community, I remember doing voluntary jobs such as security/stewards at fireworks events, we used to help out at show jumping events by building the courses, as well as parades in the town come remembrance days. All of which was great for raising our profile. Which is somewhat more than what my RDF unit does at present.

    Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Might have better retention figures in the RDF is we had an ACF force as a lead in. We used to get equiries from keen youngsters who had lost interest by 17...any thoughts?
    I think the ACF is a great organisation, great for character building. But I doubt you'll ever get it over here though.

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  • Truck Driver
    Captain

  • Truck Driver
    replied
    Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Might have better retention figures in the RDF is we had an ACF force as a lead in. We used to get equiries from keen youngsters who had lost interest by 17...any thoughts?
    Quite possibly, but seeing as there seems to be apathy towards the RDf from the MA at the
    moment, we could hardly expect this to happen aswell ?

    Leave a comment:

  • Goldie fish
    Tim Horgan

  • Goldie fish
    replied
    You'll get hammered with "child soldiers" from th edo gooders. Isn't that one of the reasons the apprentice school closed? No more 16 year old soldiers.

    Leave a comment:

  • hptmurphy
    Commander in Chief

  • hptmurphy
    replied
    he ACF isn't a reserve it is a army run youth organisation!
    Might have better retention figures in the RDF is we had an ACF force as a lead in. We used to get equiries from keen youngsters who had lost interest by 17...any thoughts?

    Leave a comment:


  • DeV
    replied
    Originally posted by danno View Post
    Well lots of other citizens make sacrifices and take risks and actually expect mothing in return,its called community invovement
    The difference is that they are usually respected for thei commitments they make and in sports you get recognision (could be medals, could be getting into a better league).


    given that the new DCOS comes from a non reserve backed service
    There local RDF unit has given them a good bit of support! They also have FLR.



    Originally posted by SwiftandSure View Post
    Personnally Danno, I think that if you took away pay from the RDF, then you may as well shut up shop, and just organise ad hoc militias in a time of crisis.
    FTT is vital yes, if it wasn't paid people just couldn't do it, it is that simple!



    When I was in the ACF I never got paid, and I paraded twice weekly, attended regular weekends and 3 weeks of camp a year. Now that was grand because I was 15 years old, I had school holidays to burn, and was free and single to do what I liked.
    The ACF isn't a reserve it is a army run youth organisation!

    Leave a comment:

  • Truck Driver
    Captain

  • Truck Driver
    replied
    Originally posted by SwiftandSure View Post
    That maybe true GF, but the solution isn't take away the pay. Scale down and skill up is the only way for the RDF to be available for operational application.

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  • SwiftandSure
    Closed Account

  • SwiftandSure
    replied
    That maybe true GF, but the solution isn't take away the pay. Scale down and skill up is the only way for the RDF to be available for operational application.

    Leave a comment:

  • Goldie fish
    Tim Horgan

  • Goldie fish
    replied
    What danno says may not be nice, but it is true. the RDF provide no quantifiable return for its cost, of any sort, apart from the odd GoH.

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  • SwiftandSure
    Closed Account

  • SwiftandSure
    replied
    Originally posted by danno View Post
    Well lots of other citizens make sacrifices and take risks and actually expect mothing in return,its called community invovement and is one of the five examples set out in Lt/Gen Earleys model of what is to be expected from all.
    Much of what is being posted about the RDF concerns pay.Given that it has no prospect of any armed duties(see Brig/Gens Hegartys interview) nor any unarmed ATCP duties as was obvious after last Winter with the Civil Defence now at least two notches higher on the food chain then one has to wonder as to what exactly members expect from the org.
    Sooner or later some bean counter in finance is going to question the need to pay people to persue what will be seen as a hobby/adventure type activity ,it may well be that takinfg the pay out of the org might leave it with commited members who want to be there for non personal gain and cause the dreaded deadwood to leave.

    While the "grand lads doing great work" attitude persists in MA circles and given that the new DCOS comes from a non reserve backed service the possibility of any duties or public interface looks very remote.All volunteers are worthy of public supportand respect but linking the service to pay issues is highly questionable.
    Personnally Danno, I think that if you took away pay from the RDF, then you may as well shut up shop, and just organise ad hoc militias in a time of crisis.
    Now that's not a slur on those who are committed to the reserve, but without pay, those who are fully committed will include the old boys who are riding out their service, and a handful of younger NCOs, senior Pvts who have a genuine love of the service. Other than that, you'll only get students and randomers passing through the service out of interest, or using it as a launch pad into the PDF. Either way, there would little to no retention.
    When I was in the ACF I never got paid, and I paraded twice weekly, attended regular weekends and 3 weeks of camp a year. Now that was grand because I was 15 years old, I had school holidays to burn, and was free and single to do what I liked. But I work fulltime now, I have a wife, someday I'll have kids, among other responsibilities. Without providing an additional income, albeit small, there's little for me to justify my week long absences to my wife, or booking time away from the on-call rota at work so I can commit to the weekend training.
    In an ideal world, yes a volunteer service might work, but in the real world it won't, because what the RDF needs is a strong foundation of professional (in both civilian and military terms) part time soldiers, not just hobbyists who enjoy putting on a uniform and want to play soldiers.

    The point of the proposal is to bring in a better calibre of part time soldier, not just the wrong people who are simply passing through. I think it's unfair to equate the ambition to provide a more professional reserve with money grabbing. Like many other enthusiastic members in the RDF I don't do it solely for the money myself, I love soldiering, but there needs to be an incentive to bring in the right calibre of troops to share our enthusiasm, and at the moment it's not there as the current state of our reserve proves.

    Leave a comment:

  • danno
    Major General

  • danno
    replied
    Originally posted by SwiftandSure View Post
    Why lose your free time and risk injury for an organisation that isn't prepared to offer you anything in return.
    Well lots of other citizens make sacrifices and take risks and actually expect mothing in return,its called community invovement and is one of the five examples set out in Lt/Gen Earleys model of what is to be expected from all.
    Much of what is being posted about the RDF concerns pay.Given that it has no prospect of any armed duties(see Brig/Gens Hegartys interview) nor any unarmed ATCP duties as was obvious after last Winter with the Civil Defence now at least two notches higher on the food chain then one has to wonder as to what exactly members expect from the org.
    Sooner or later some bean counter in finance is going to question the need to pay people to persue what will be seen as a hobby/adventure type activity ,it may well be that takinfg the pay out of the org might leave it with commited members who want to be there for non personal gain and cause the dreaded deadwood to leave.

    While the "grand lads doing great work" attitude persists in MA circles and given that the new DCOS comes from a non reserve backed service the possibility of any duties or public interface looks very remote.All volunteers are worthy of public supportand respect but linking the service to pay issues is highly questionable.

    Leave a comment:


  • DeV
    replied
    Well we all want to avoid paying tax, but reservists have always been supposed to declare their earnings, that is everyone personal responsibility, so it wasn't that we wanted to stop paying tax they did want a tax credit (it was discussed at an ADC I was at).

    Here is some evidence:

    http://www.rdfra.ie/pdf/newsletters/..._Spring_05.pdf (page 6)
    http://www.rdfra.ie/pdf/newsletters/..._Spring_07.pdf (page 1)
    http://www.rdfra.ie/pdf/newsletters/..._Autumn_07.pdf (page 4)
    http://www.rdfra.ie/pdf/newsletters/..._Autumn_06.pdf (page 7)

    http://www.rdfra.ie/pdf/ADC2005/RDFR...l%20Report.pdf (page 5)
    http://www.rdfra.ie/pdf/ADC2007/Annual%20Report.pdf (page 3)
    http://www.rdfra.ie/pdf/ADC2006/Pres...ech%202006.pdf (page 2)
    http://www.rdfra.ie/pdf/ADC2006/Annual%20Report.pdf (page 4)
    http://www.rdfra.ie/pdf/ADC2005/Pres...ech%202005.pdf (page 3)

    Leave a comment:

  • SwiftandSure
    Closed Account

  • SwiftandSure
    replied
    Originally posted by DeV View Post
    Unfortually, RDFRA looked for tax credits for the RDF before the recession started, around 2/3 years ago and we still don't have them.
    Did they? I only ask as when I put the idea forward, I very much got the impression that they hadn't considered it before. Is it documented?
    I know they tried to avoid paying tax, but the winning counter arguement was that even the blind pay tax. So that poo-poo'd that.

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  • DeV
    replied
    But the point is that the RDF needs to be more appealing to the professional masses, whilst still trying to be VFM. I think the proposal offers a good compromise to all parties concerned.
    All very true

    Originally posted by SwiftandSure View Post
    I never said the timing was favourable for this idea, especially seeing as we're balls deep into a recession.
    Unfortually, RDFRA looked for tax credits for the RDF before the recession started, around 2/3 years ago and we still don't have them.

    Leave a comment:

  • SwiftandSure
    Closed Account

  • SwiftandSure
    replied
    Thanks lads. All feedback and criticism welcome.

    Leave a comment:

  • Truck Driver
    Captain

  • Truck Driver
    replied
    Only got to read this tonight, as you said, 'twas long

    Having said that, it concisely outlined the issues we currently have, as a
    part of the Defence Forces, and possible solutions and examples for same

    I say fair play to ya for taking the time and effort to put this forward

    Am wondering if RDFRA have done suchlike, or in such detail ?

    Certainly should provoke SOME debate in the relevant departments

    If it does not, then they are not doing their jobs properly in getting VFM
    for the taxpayer

    Leave a comment:

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