Reducing the deficit: Cuts and changes to the DF 2010 -2014

[ZULU]

Ideas on how to contribute to the cuts being planned? How to get the same out of the system for less money?

[DeV]

- Rationalisation of the transport fleet over the medium term (ie similar numbers of vehicles of less types)
- Rationalisation & standardisation of everything across the DF (eg make sure all NS vessels have the same equipment - less money on training on different systems, more personnel available, lower unit purchase price, lower maintenance costs)
- Less use of DE officers, get rid of USAC, introduce short service commissions, graduates of particular areas to be targeted
- More use of IT
- Planning purchasing properly
- Close smaller barracks
- A UN mission overseas
- A properly organised & communicated reorganisation of the RDF (ie Integration to make up the shortfall in PDF establishment, that could mean the Integrated RDF would be 1,500 larger than it was supposed to be)
- Absorb FLR into SLR
- Look at entitlements to allowances (eg border allowance)
- Complusory offsets (to aid industry and jobs)
- Use the RDF

[paul g]

Ideas on how to contribute to the cuts being planned? How to get the same out of the system for less money?

Are there big cuts to the Df being planned? Compared to the Prison service or Garda for example, the DF are quite efficent.

there are a lot of public sector bodies that are for more likely to suffer big cuts.

[DeV]

Due to the last lot of cuts you could argue that the DF are currently living hand to mouth!

[hptmurphy]

Less use of DE officers, get rid of USAC, introduce short service commissions, graduates of particular areas to be targeted

Kind of contradictory in that those who can be given short service commissions with maximum return expected are from the 'trades' as opposed to line officers whose depend on their service for upskilling.

(eg make sure all NS vessels have the same equipment

They do..but you can't compare a 1976 landrover with a a 2009 Mitsubishi pajero. Yes it can be fitted with the same gear but its original stuff can't be changed, chassis, body work etc and the only economic update is full replacement ensuring commonality.

You have this perception that ships are different, but look at who when and why they were built purchased and fitted out. No other peice of kit bar the AMLs are older in the DF. And they are no longer being taught at basic level.
Compare like for like, not chalk and cheese. The only way to practically do what you want re the NS is to scrap everything bar the Niamh and Roisin.

Close smaller barracks

Better idea. Consolidate every thing in each brigade to one major centre per brigade and clozse everything else. Everything in Dublin and the East Coast goes to The Curragh, The South to Cork and the West to Athlone... nice tidy sums to be saved here.You can sell them of when the property market rises but for now you have reduced running costs.

A UN mission overseas

Short term cost are too high. We still haven;t been paid in full for liberia.

A properly organised & communicated reorganisation of the RDF (ie Integration to make up the shortfall in PDF establishment, that could mean the Integrated RDF would be 1,500 larger than it was supposed to be)

Disband the RDF as it stands

Absorb FLR into SLR

Take your top 10% from the RDF amalgamate with FLR..there's your reserve

Look at entitlements to allowances (eg border allowance)

Get rid of allowances and make positions that attract allowances rotational as opposed to being cherry picked. Re structure pay to get rid of allowances and spread work load more evenly.

Use the RDF

Bin it in its current format.

Part from that you're doing fine.

[DeV]

Kind of contradictory in that those who can be given short service commissions with maximum return expected are from the 'trades' as opposed to line officers whose depend on their service for upskilling.

With regard to SSCs what I'm suggesting is that line officers only receive SSCs (which can be extended (same as in British Army), therefore no "hump" can happen again.

They do..but you can't compare a 1976 landrover with a a 2009 Mitsubishi pajero. Yes it can be fitted with the same gear but its original stuff can't be changed, chassis, body work etc and the only economic update is full replacement ensuring commonality.

You have this perception that ships are different, but look at who when and why they were built purchased and fitted out. No other peice of kit bar the AMLs are older in the DF. And they are no longer being taught at basic level.
Compare like for like, not chalk and cheese. The only way to practically do what you want re the NS is to scrap everything bar the Niamh and Roisin.

They are all suppose to be over the next few years. What I propose is as vessels are replaced there is a purchasing plan. Look at it this way standardisation of equipment means less training, less spares, more knowledge, cheaper running costs (there is of course the assumption that they will get it right first time). So for example the, old OPVs (1 type), the CPVs (1 type) and Eithne be replaced with a single (or two if we end up getting the EPV) class. It would lead to huge savings (mainly with regard to maintenance) and possibly servicability.

Take your top 10% from the RDF amalgamate with FLR..there's your reserve

You could argue that the SLR is more cost effective than the FLR, the FLR currently get grat for filing out 1 form annually!

[paul g]

Due to the last lot of cuts you could argue that the DF are currently living hand to mouth!

Not really,

There have a lot of new gear, and the OPVs are going ahead.

The prison service costs a fortune, as do the garda, Dermot Ahern rightly pointed out yesterday that prison is an expensive way of making bad people worse, the department of judtice will take a hit.

All in all there might be scope for further economies in the DF, but actual cuts are unlikely, the Dod are pretty efficent.

[DeV]

Not really,

There have a lot of new gear, and the OPVs are going ahead.

Most of which was purchased (or contracts signed) prior to the cuts.

Unfortually the money for the OPVs will come from somewhere, we will find out soon where from.

Dermot Ahern rightly pointed out yesterday that prison is an expensive way of making bad people worse.

It has taken a worldwide recession for him to realise that! and how long have we been in recession now?

All in all there might be scope for further economies in the DF, but actual cuts are unlikely

Those are in effect cuts.... eg "economies" can be made in overseas allowances due to there being no major mission (why? because of cuts) and the money could be put into for example the transport budget. It will be a cut in 1 sub-heading and an increase in another. It is robbing peter to pay paul

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi there,
Mothball 10% of every moving vehicle in each fleet type.If something goes in for overhaul, do the work and then place the vehicles in usable storage, only available for exceptional emergencies and placed in quarantine so that parts cannot be "robbed" for other vehicles. Same with aircraft and ships and guns.It cuts fuel and spares consumption at a stroke.
regards
GttC

[Eddie Dillon]

Better idea. Consolidate every thing in each brigade to one major centre per brigade and clozse everything else. Everything in Dublin and the East Coast goes to The Curragh, The South to Cork and the West to Athlone... nice tidy sums to be saved here.You can sell them of when the property market rises but for now you have reduced running costs.

Where exactly in Cork and Athlone are you going to pack in an extra two infantry battalions? Not to mention the cost involved in constructing accommodation, offices, vehicle storage, ordnance stores etc etc. Maybe if you doubled the size of these places but other than that, comlpetely unrealistic.

[Goldie fish]

Collins Barracks absorbed an artillery regiment(plus guns and vehicles) and a Cavalry squadron, in the 90s with very little in the way of new building, except for a garage, and new compound, which was overdue anyway.
People only take up space if they are sitting in a room all day. This is not the case with army units. Headquarters and orderly rooms at most, but the rest of the infastructure required already exists.

[hptmurphy]

Where exactly in Cork and Athlone are you going to pack in an extra two infantry battalions? Not to mention the cost involved in constructing accommodation, offices, vehicle storage, ordnance stores etc etc. Maybe if you doubled the size of these places but other than that, comlpetely unrealistic.

Take alook at the SLI as opposed to SLO or MLO, wouldn't need any more accomodation.In the case of consolidating in Cork you are talking of moving one battalion to Cork.Let the Company in Kilkenny belong to the 3rd return to the Curragh.Now look at the savings fitting one Battalion into a barracks the size of cork..no problem.

Again Athlone already absorbed what came off the border. A little bit of rejigging would fit another unit in there.

Getting rid of all the replication in services is where money is to be saved and it would consolidate equipment.

Unfortually the money for the OPVs will come from somewhere, we will find out soon where from.

Realistically we either have a functioning navy or we don't. Functioning means having to have to spend money to keep it operational.If you don't keep it operational its no functyional and there fore becomes unused and obselete and then is either disposed of or replaced at even greater cost.

We've been here before , we know the realities of this and it took us 30 years to recover from the last bad planning descision from the Government on behalf of the NS.Realistcally the NS has only reached its prime in the past ten years.Any reduction in ship numbers or reduction in funding would put us back to where we were in 1970.

Cots cuttting in equipment spending the DF budget will do the same to the army. Only in the recent past has the army become a credible deployable force within a european battle group scenario. Limiting funding to support this would leave us fall behind hence the need to save moey at another level.

Wages can't be touched future purchases have been streamline so the only place for savings is in infrastructure and running costs .ie. Barracks and camps.

Sure it would cause pain and social problems but if it meant the army having a viable future its realistic.

Zulus image highlighting military posts highlights how ridiculous the situation is. I wonder what the army themselves would sacrifice first, equipment, manpower or locations. Logic would say locations but then again when every little outposts is someones kingdom there will surely be resistance.

Mothball 10% of every moving vehicle in each fleet type.If something goes in for overhaul, do the work and then place the vehicles in usable storage, only available for exceptional emergencies and placed in quarantine so that parts cannot be "robbed" for other vehicles.

reduction in locations would reduce the requirement for mileage on vehicles.The robbing of parts has happened already with Mowags given the spares package wasn't all that it should have been.But again this is a reasonable proposal if the requirement was not there for vehicles to be used as couriers between too many locations.

The waste involved in the use of army transport is huge. Tighten up on the amount of locations being served and you can reduce your transport costs dramatically.

All in all there might be scope for further economies in the DF, but actual cuts are unlikely, the Dod are pretty efficent.

In comparrison to other government agencies they are, but they have huge overheads which area major drain on the resources available to them, amongst these being the manning and maintainence of post which could be classed as non viable and that have only remained open to date to pander to the needs of local government TDs. Limerick would never close while Willie O'Dea was Minister...Killeen has the stated the same about Lahinch..( FFS)!!!..anyone see a pattern? If Barracks were retained for realistic military reasons it might be defensible but these are blatant small town political considerations.

The peace dividend from the good friday agreement on this side of the border has yet to be fully realized. The brits pulled 12,000 troops out of the north...we closed two small sized barracks/camps and moved the troops down the road.... and still pay them an allowance for being some where they are not!!!!

If someone lifts the shiney cover of the DF the organisation is rife with room for restructuring ..and saving a few quid on the side.

[DeV]

Collins Barracks absorbed an artillery regiment(plus guns and vehicles) and a Cavalry squadron, in the 90s with very little in the way of new building, except for a garage, and new compound, which was overdue anyway.
People only take up space if they are sitting in a room all day. This is not the case with army units. Headquarters and orderly rooms at most, but the rest of the infastructure required already exists.

You need sufficient hard standing, dining hall capable of feeding those on meal tickets/free rations, HQs, orderly rooms, locker rooms, ablutions, SLI accomodiation etc

Take alook at the SLI as opposed to SLO or MLO, wouldn't need any more accomodation.In the case of consolidating in Cork you are talking of moving one battalion to Cork.Let the Company in Kilkenny belong to the 3rd return to the Curragh.Now look at the savings fitting one Battalion into a barracks the size of cork..no problem.

Again Athlone already absorbed what came off the border. A little bit of rejigging would fit another unit in there.

There is more than 1 coy in Kilkenny.

Athlone AFAIK only took a Cavalry Squadron, the Infantry from the border went to Finner and Aiken.

Getting rid of all the replication in services is where money is to be saved and it would consolidate equipment.

Quite correct

Wages can't be touched future purchases have been streamline so the only place for savings is in infrastructure and running costs .ie. Barracks and camps.

True but they have to take allowances off people who are no longer entitled to them!

Zulus image highlighting military posts highlights how ridiculous the situation is. I wonder what the army themselves would sacrifice first, equipment, manpower or locations. Logic would say locations but then again when every little outposts is someones kingdom there will surely be resistance.

Didn't the DF show that it would pick already!?

reduction in locations would reduce the requirement for mileage on vehicles.

.

The peace dividend from the good friday agreement on this side of the border has yet to be fully realized. The brits pulled 12,000 troops out of the north...we closed two small sized barracks/camps and moved the troops down the road.... and still pay them an allowance for being some where they are not!!!!

Since around 1998, we have:
lost 22% of PDF personnel
lost 2 infantry battalions
closed 4 barracks along the border (Rockhill, Lifford, Monaghan, Castleblaney)
closed 1 more barracks fairly close to the border (Longford)
plus closed another 5 barracks around the country (Fermoy, Ballincollig, Magee, Clancy, Devoy)

[Truck Driver]

Athlone AFAIK only took a Cavalry Squadron, the Infantry from the border went to Finner and Aiken....

The personnel in Dun Ui Neill, although on paper, now part of 6 Inf Bn, haven't
moved anywhere.... another example of a Bks with just one Inf Coy in it....

[hptmurphy]

There is more than 1 coy in Kilkenny.

Same as Clonmel.Company plus logs..about 220. Same barracks housed an entire Bn in the past.. justify the running of a bks with less than a third its previous man power.

l

ost 22% of PDF personnel
lost 2 infantry battalions

Fermoy ,Ballincollig,Rockhill and Lifford were only outposts again in the theme of manned or occupied posts populated by small units. God knows I did enough duties in Fermoy when they went on the border.Running of small out posts like this is very expensive and a drain on resources. I can't comment on the others.

Ballincollig was a huge site in relation to the unit based there. Good move closing it.

lost 2 infantry battalions

Nominally as opposed to actual losses as the Bns in question were so understrenght they were effectively companies plus..Kilkenny was the 30th Bn, very little changes and now a company plus.

V.E.R related , nothing to do with peace dividend. Army was over populated with th people of a higher age profile.

reduction in locations would reduce the requirement for mileage on vehicles

You should see the amount of army vehicles transiting to and from Clonmel, Cork and Kilkenny each day..often with only one person on board....go to limerick pick up a package..I driver..I nissan.. 3 hours...Fedex..about 20 quid!

True but they have to take allowances off people who are no longer entitled to them!

Thats what they are..allowances as opposed to core pay. Under Croke Park they can withdraw allowances where required and you can submit a claim for loss of earning one year afterward based on that years loss as a once off payment.

You need sufficient hard standing, dining hall capable of feeding those on meal tickets/free rations, HQs, orderly rooms, locker rooms, ablutions, SLI accomodiation etc

Messes etc are already there, enough space to fill the other criteria if the replication was reduced and modernistaion and conversion of existing facilities would be cheaper than keeping two other bks and half a dozen RDF outposts open.