Are we getting too soft?

[medic]

A point was made in another thread which got me thinking.
During my time in the job i seen lots of changes, some good some bad.
One of the biggest changes was the way soldiers were treated, particularly recruits. While i certainly don't advocate bullying, has training gotten to the point that recruits are being wrapped in cotton wool so to speak?
As i stated in another thread, as a serving NCO i (and my fellow nco's) were told by an officer not to shout at recruits as this now constituted bullying. In fairness to the officer, he was relaying orders from a higher authority.
So, while i'm not looking to find out if someone has shouted at you in the last year, I am wondering is political correctness ruining the establishments ability to turn out good soldiers?

[Goldie fish]

I wonder if the statute of limitations has passed to allow me discuss this yet?

[Thorpe]

Ive had the same problem this year on camp, with certain officers wrapping certain people in bubble wrap and cotton woll and we are trying to bring these people up to a certain level and we cant shout at them as it now called bullying. In a fews words "we are getting too soft".

[Bravo20]

It all depends on what you call shouting. If you mean standing 2 inches away from their face and shouting then yes that is against A7 (specifically mentioned). If it means that you ridicule the individual personally, make personal comments and or swear at them, why then yes that is also against A7.

If it means that you are yelling orders at a distance in order to be heard, then no problem. If it means that you are on the square issuing drill orders, then no problem. If it means that you are shouting at them to get formed up then no problem (as long as it is not two inches away from their faces and does not involve personal comments).

I have no problem with A7, it does not and would never interfere with how I perform my duty. The shouting described in the first instance is a sign of a poor instructer and a bully and has no place in the defence forces. If you have to rely on that in order to instill discipline you have allready lost and should consider another career.

[Docman]

Re: Are we getting too soft?

Originally posted by medic
As i stated in another thread, as a serving NCO i (and my fellow nco's) were told by an officer not to shout at recruits as this now constituted bullying. In fairness to the officer, he was relaying orders from a higher authority.

The problem is that few people know what the regulations concerning bullying are and are erring on the side of caution. It is not bullying to shout at recruits as a unit for a good reason, but if you pick out one and shout at him/her, especially face to face, you are in trouble.

It is all a case of how the individual interprets what you are doing. If the spirit in which the reprimand is given is doubtful or without foundation, don't give it. If the unit understands why they are being shouted at and knows there is good reason (they ****ed up), then there should not be a problem.

http://www.military.ie/pr/publications_defence_policy_on_harassment.htm

There is a booklet out there about bullying and gives a general idea on what one can and cannot do (should be available in medical posts). Obtain a copy, study it, and apply it.

However orders are orders and if you are ordered not to do it, then don't.

[Docman]

Originally posted by Bravo20
The shouting described in the first instance is a sign of a poor instructer and a bully and has no place in the defence forces. If you have to rely on that in order to instill discipline you have allready lost and should consider another career.

I disagree, but it depends on exactly what you mean by shouting. Meanspirited degrading harrassment is totally incorrect, and should be eliminated from the DF, but there is circumstances where a jolt to the system is needed to wake a unit up.

If you are in a platoon in attack (training), and a section is lagging behind the others in the attack, giving them that extra incentive may be exactly what they need. It is when the individual is most under pressure, and being pushed to their limit by the circumstances that confront them, that talking to them is ineffective. You don't have time, and they have little inclination to listen.

I suppose it is all down to the circumstances that you find facing you. While shouting may have a limited place, there is a point where you have no choice, especially when it comes to motivating a unit to push itself that little bit further.

[Bravo20]

Docman read my post.

[Cosantor]

I was in a situation where by I was decretly called off the square by a C/S who had a quiet word in my ear.
Apparently he was worried as he heard that one Female recruit (not starting the old chestnut of male Vs Female) had taken it to heart that an NCO was shouting at the the Platoon while drilling on the square.

I mean come on.........The world is going PC mad!!!! Mad I tell ya!!!!!

[Docman]

Originally posted by Bravo20
Docman read my post.

Yes, read it twice.... and your point is???

[Bravo20]

The examples you gave as being acceptable instances for shouting were the same that I gave as being acceptable instances. You said you disagreed with me but in fact you are agreeing with me.

[jpb]

right lads this is my opinion,

if you are trying to put people under stress, as the job demands screaming and roaring are the only things that you may have available, i am not talking about on the square, but in a simualated situation ie under attack, drills ect, the stress and strains of real conditions are a lot to bare so to stimulate stress the old adage of screaming and raoring was used and used well (in the pdf anyway), i know you had one or two who would bully but as a whole after it was all over people knew they could work together in training anyway.

some p/c is acceptable but it is getting out of hand, but then that is the way of the world now, the yanks and brit's have all the technology so its easier for them to fit in these pc laws as they do not have the human input all the time and its handed over to computer's, we on the other hand have minimum tech, but we always follow their lead and a lot of our training is on the ground, you dont always have blank's and pyrotechnics so the stimulation has to come from somewhere, but then its un pc to shout.

hope i made a little sense,

keep safe.

[Docman]

Originally posted by Bravo20
If it means that you are yelling orders at a distance in order to be heard, then no problem. If it means that you are on the square issuing drill orders, then no problem. If it means that you are shouting at them to get formed up then no problem (as long as it is not two inches away from their faces and does not involve personal comments).

What I am refering to is a lot more forceful than your examples and is akin to applying boot to posterior (not literally). I don't mean shouting orders on the battlefield so that they can be heard, but more screaming at a section hiding in a ditch to get their asses out of the ditch and into the attack before you drag them out. There are times when you just have to bang a few heads together (not literally, again) to achieve the mission.

It is the intent in which the reprimand is given that is important, and this usually works if the section receiving the reprimand has been properly briefed as to the contents of A7.

[California Tanker]

Shouting is quite acceptable 'on the square' in the US Army. If properly used, it can add stress, and so increase team cohesion.

NTM

[Goldie fish]

I have put a LOT of thought into this over the last 12 months,and I have come to this conclusion.
Bullying is wrong,undeniably. But what constitutes bullying to one individual is perfectly normal to another,and this difference is compounded in the collective.
For example, to shout and scream obscenities at a recruit from a certain neighbourhood could be fine,as he has been gettin the daylights beaten out of him since he was able to walk and displaying any less than this authority will not gain his respect.
However using the same mentality on a group of upper-middle class recruits,who always had the best of conditions and education,and grew up learning to respect authority for no other reason than it is authority,and you will find yourself alienated.
But the question has never been answered,what summary punishment is available to the NCO to deal with those who do not respect the NCO's or officers authority?
Are we going to have to charge everyone who has a lapse of patience,be they student or instructor?
What about the NCO who is the subject of harassment or bullying by a person of junior rank?
I await a reply with eagnerness....

[Joshua]

But the question has never been answered,what summary punishment is available to the NCO to deal with those who do not respect the NCO's or officers authority?

DFRs, failure to obey a lawful order.



What about the NCO who is the subject of harassment or bullying by a person of junior rank?

A7 applies to all.

Regards etc