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  • Is the DF a dangerous career?

    Originally posted by apod View Post
    Really.And your vast experience of Irish foreign policy of which our deployments overseas are a part of leads you to believe this??How??
    Make work programs??That statement is highly insulting to those of us who have volunteered to leave our families and lives behind to serve in some real shitholes for the benefit of some of the worlds neediest people.You should retract that statement.
    What purpose do they serve??
    Ask the people of the refugee camps in chad who werent being killed and raped while we were there.Ask the people of Kosovo who we rebuilt their meagre houses for in winter conditions that could kill you Ask the people of East timor who could go about their normal daily lives without fear of militias attacking them while we were there.Ask the children of Tibnin orphanage how they feel about the Irish who helped feed them and educate them.
    Ask the people of south lebanon how they feel about us after we put ourselves between their homes and the might of the israeli army.
    Do all that and then come back here and tell us what purpose it serves.
    Not to mention lots of good men never got to see their families again since they came home from those "make work" programs in a flag draped coffin.

    Unbelievable.

  • #2
    And your vast experience of Irish foreign policy
    here it all begins to break down.

    Fairly obvious that the poster has very limited contact with PDF units outside his own cadre and then it is blighted by his own opinions on his own abilities which probably have limitations well below his own expectations.

    Step up to the mark and earn the respect when you have walked in the shoes of some of those who post here.

    While you are entitled to an opinion it should be relevant and certainly not condescending toward those who do the job and have gone to the places you fail to recognise as hazardous duty.

    Ever see a unit straight out prison duties and the strain showing and the precautions they have to take..doubt it ?

    Ever buried a colleague having died on active service while do his job ? Doubt it.

    Ever take on a job where you know there is a risk that the body armour won't work ?

    Spend hours up hours upon days doing the same routine because it makes things a little safer for others...?

    Try it.. you might even get used to it..and then be entitled to partake as an equal of experience.

    I certainly can't say that I've shared what some of these men have , but I've known dangers and seen things they'll never know just because of the branch of the DF I chose for a career.

    But they have my respect as I know what they do and I've seen how they treat their colleagues ,dead and alive and while I might not be part of it any more, its still part of me.
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

    Comment


    • #3
      FFS.

      This is getting tedious.

      The lads in the DF have a dangerous job by its nature but come on murph.

      How many DF personnel died last year as a direct result of their job?
      How many Gardai?
      How many farmers?
      Guess what - farming is the most dangerous employment in the state not the army.

      Stress after coming off prison duty?
      What about the "unarmed" wardens?

      As for buried collegues as a direct result of the job, been in a situation where "body armour" wont be of any use to keep you alive and sticking to a safe routine to ensure the protection of self and others there are plenty of employments that meet those criteria.

      So off the soap box lads.

      HA and Apod how many of you comrades came back from overseas in a coffin as a direct result of "enemy" action?
      And none of the "every soldier is a brother" crap either.
      And before anyone shouts opsec I am not asking for details.
      AFICR it was 2002 when it happened - East Timor - and then you have to go back another 10 years to find another one.
      So don't rest on someone elses lourels
      Without supplies no army is brave.

      —Frederick the Great,

      Instructions to his Generals, 1747

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by luchi View Post
        As for buried collegues as a direct result of the job, been in a situation where "body armour" wont be of any use to keep you alive and sticking to a safe routine to ensure the protection of self and others there are plenty of employments that meet those criteria.

        So off the soap box lads.

        HA and Apod how many of you comrades came back from overseas in a coffin as a direct result of "enemy" action?
        And none of the "every soldier is a brother" crap either.
        And before anyone shouts opsec I am not asking for details.
        AFICR it was 2002 when it happened - East Timor - and then you have to go back another 10 years to find another one.
        So don't rest on someone elses lourels
        Why is it crap exactly?

        Are you honestly suggesting that any idea of brotherhood or remembering those who went before you has no place in the DF?

        Men that served 10, 20 or 30 years ago helped shape the DF into what it is today, they helped the DF gain it's reputation Overseas that it has today, they continue to be the example and standard that young members of the DF(myself included) should strive towards.

        It's not resting on someone's laurel's at all. If you think it's perfectly acceptable for people who have never even stepped up to the plate and earned themselves a black beret, to describe Overseas missions where members of the DF were killed and wounded, as "Make work programs", well then fair play to you. Personally, I think such people have no right to serve in the same Defence Forces those men served in.

        Those kind of comments are right up there with the wanker who came on here before telling us all that if the RDF went Overseas, they at least wouldn't shoot themselves in the head. Which was of course a dig aimed at the death over in Timor.

        Then again, my beliefs are crap... So rock on.
        Last edited by Hello Alaska; 7 April 2011, 16:51.

        Comment


        • #5
          Apod all what you say is true but defending refugees in Chad or any where else is not essential to the People of Ireland. If it were the DF would be a lot bigger and we would have camps all round the world. That statement in no way should detract from the work the DF do.
          Actually there have been quite a few good books written about where we fit in to Irish foreign policy.Without going to far off on a tangent Irish foreign policy at its most basic is about what is good for ireland and its people in the long term.How our neighbours view us anlongside the international community.Your standing as an irish citizen abroad in a great many countries has been influenced by our actions believe it or not.Dont forget that Chad in its early days was an EU mission.Who just gave us a big chunk of cash??Nothing comes from nothing.

          Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
          here it all begins to break down.

          Fairly obvious that the poster has very limited contact with PDF units outside his own cadre and then it is blighted by his own opinions on his own abilities which probably have limitations well below his own expectations.

          Step up to the mark and earn the respect when you have walked in the shoes of some of those who post here.

          While you are entitled to an opinion it should be relevant and certainly not condescending toward those who do the job and have gone to the places you fail to recognise as hazardous duty.

          Ever see a unit straight out prison duties and the strain showing and the precautions they have to take..doubt it ?

          Ever buried a colleague having died on active service while do his job ? Doubt it.

          Ever take on a job where you know there is a risk that the body armour won't work ?

          Spend hours up hours upon days doing the same routine because it makes things a little safer for others...?

          Try it.. you might even get used to it..and then be entitled to partake as an equal of experience.

          I certainly can't say that I've shared what some of these men have , but I've known dangers and seen things they'll never know just because of the branch of the DF I chose for a career.

          But they have my respect as I know what they do and I've seen how they treat their colleagues ,dead and alive and while I might not be part of it any more, its still part of me.
          Hear,hear Murph.


          Originally posted by luchi View Post
          FFS.

          This is getting tedious.

          The lads in the DF have a dangerous job by its nature but come on murph.

          How many DF personnel died last year as a direct result of their job?
          How many Gardai?
          How many farmers?
          Guess what - farming is the most dangerous employment in the state not the army.

          Stress after coming off prison duty?
          What about the "unarmed" wardens?

          As for buried collegues as a direct result of the job, been in a situation where "body armour" wont be of any use to keep you alive and sticking to a safe routine to ensure the protection of self and others there are plenty of employments that meet those criteria.

          So off the soap box lads.

          HA and Apod how many of you comrades came back from overseas in a coffin as a direct result of "enemy" action?
          And none of the "every soldier is a brother" crap either.
          And before anyone shouts opsec I am not asking for details.
          AFICR it was 2002 when it happened - East Timor - and then you have to go back another 10 years to find another one.
          So don't rest on someone elses lourels
          Whos resting on someone elses laurels??Where has that been said here?
          And to answer your question.Three.
          Happy now??

          PS: Whats your profession luchi??When was the last time you were in harms way???
          "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by luchi View Post
            FFS.

            This is getting tedious.

            The lads in the DF have a dangerous job by its nature but come on murph.

            How many DF personnel died last year as a direct result of their job?
            How many Gardai?
            How many farmers?
            Guess what - farming is the most dangerous employment in the state not the army.
            How many Gardai are seriously injured in the course of doing their job? Does it only make their job dangerous if they get killed?
            How many of the farmyard fatalities happened to people on the farm, not involved in farming? One could say the fatalities in the defence forces would be far higher if you allowed children wander around the Glen during a 105 shoot!


            Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Hello Alaska View Post
              Why is it crap exactly?

              Then again, my beliefs are crap... So rock on.
              No. the every soldier is a brother comment was to avoid someone coming on and telling us of Irish lads in the BA being killed in service. Or members of other countries military services.

              But your beliefs are not crap and I would never suggest that they are.

              Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
              How many Gardai are seriously injured in the course of doing their job? Does it only make their job dangerous if they get killed?
              No but the comment was about people returning in a coffin not mained etc.
              How many of the farmyard fatalities happened to people on the farm, not involved in farming? One could say the fatalities in the defence forces would be far higher if you allowed children wander around the Glen during a 105 shoot!
              no one couldn't because I was talking of people employed on a farm not those on a farm.
              On avarage there are 5 farm employees killed as a direct result of their occupation.
              This does not count anyone killed by vehicles or non employed or familily that happen to be killed.

              Originally posted by apod View Post
              PS: Whats your profession luchi??When was the last time you were in harms way???
              I am an engineer. I work on plant machinery with high pressure gas and hydraulic systems. every time we have a brakedown and have to depressurise the system I and those working under me are in harms way.
              One mistake and I can kill the 3 on my team.
              But I suppose that means nothing because my job is safe.
              However I was not always in such a safe job.

              as for resting on lourels - you count 3 death, and It does not make me happy but it is a far cry from the "lots" that HA is claiming. It has been some time since we last had multiple fatalities due to enemy action.
              Without supplies no army is brave.

              —Frederick the Great,

              Instructions to his Generals, 1747

              Comment


              • #8
                Luchi,with respect you are in a job where there is a high risk of accidents.You dont have to worry about people shooting,mortaring,IED'ng you or stepping on mines that some muppet forgot to map.The DF also has a high risk ratio with regards accidents but most other professions dont have to worry about the other things i have mentioned now do they??
                "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by luchi View Post
                  I am an engineer. I work on plant machinery with high pressure gas and hydraulic systems. every time we have a brakedown and have to depressurise the system I and those working under me are in harms way.

                  .

                  You just dont get it mate.

                  you count 3 death, and It does not make me happy but it is a far cry from the "lots" that HA is claiming. It has been some time since we last had multiple fatalities due to enemy action
                  - You really really dont get and with statements like that I doubt you ever will get it.


                  And I thought FIshing was the occupation and hobby with the greatest death rate.

                  And you still dont get it.
                  Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                  Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                  The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                  The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                  The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                  Are full of passionate intensity.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    You just dont get it mate
                    And he won't.

                    You have to live with it to know...not the death destruction overseas any of that.It all starts day one when you join up.. the guy next to you on the bus.From there on its everything it never goes away.

                    I met with my class mates from 25 years ago and one still serving said to me..i haven't a clue where you've been for twenty odd years but you were the first guy I spoke with when I got on the bus.

                    Others had other iconic things to say.

                    These guys had been around the world literally and could remember some one like that and every one had some memory like that.

                    That dosen't happen any where else. Take a look at the Navy face book page, the Units pages, the UNIFIL page, guys who haven't served together in twenty years..its not all gone.

                    Things like Cavalry day..Naval open days.. thats the Corps d'Esprit we were looking for a while ago back, its there just we look in the wrong places.

                    I have no doubt that farming fishing even engineering can be dangerous jobs the DF by its nature is dangerous and we get away very lightly casualty wise.A lot die from natural causes whatever..but have a look at the turn out at funerals and the support to hand, we even recognize the dead here even though we never knew them, its accepted as part of the job.

                    I wouldn't trade it for the world to have been a part of it if even for a relatively short time.
                    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by apod View Post
                      Luchi,with respect you are in a job where there is a high risk of accidents.You dont have to worry about people shooting,mortaring,IED'ng you or stepping on mines that some muppet forgot to map.The DF also has a high risk ratio with regards accidents but most other professions dont have to worry about the other things i have mentioned now do they??
                      as i said before you are not wrong.
                      just that the DF don't have excluse rights on stress and danger.

                      Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
                      You just dont get it mate.
                      hedgie I am afraid all this is out of context now. You can't even catch up as the related matter is split away.
                      but to clarify that is a direct response to the notion that "lots" of members of the DF return from overseas service in a coffin.

                      And I thought FIshing was the occupation and hobby with the greatest death rate.
                      I did too but when I wrang someone that keeps such stats they put me right. that is not to say that fisheried is not dangerous.
                      Without supplies no army is brave.

                      —Frederick the Great,

                      Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                        DF by its nature is dangerous and we get away very lightly casualty wise.
                        That has never been disputed.
                        ..but have a look at the turn out at funerals and the support to hand, we even recognize the dead here even though we never knew them, its accepted as part of the job.
                        This is not unique to the DF!
                        But do any of you even see that?
                        Without supplies no army is brave.

                        —Frederick the Great,

                        Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          But do any of you even see that?
                          Yes but it dosen't happen in the same way as at full military funerals.Burying one of your own, with a piper present, bugler , shots fired and walking behind a gun carriage.flags exchanged........I'm not doing any more.
                          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by luchi View Post
                            No. the every soldier is a brother comment was to avoid someone coming on and telling us of Irish lads in the BA being killed in service. Or members of other countries military services.

                            But your beliefs are not crap and I would never suggest that they are.


                            No but the comment was about people returning in a coffin not mained etc.
                            no one couldn't because I was talking of people employed on a farm not those on a farm.
                            On avarage there are 5 farm employees killed as a direct result of their occupation.
                            This does not count anyone killed by vehicles or non employed or familily that happen to be killed.


                            I am an engineer. I work on plant machinery with high pressure gas and hydraulic systems. every time we have a brakedown and have to depressurise the system I and those working under me are in harms way.
                            One mistake and I can kill the 3 on my team.
                            But I suppose that means nothing because my job is safe.
                            However I was not always in such a safe job.

                            as for resting on lourels - you count 3 death, and It does not make me happy but it is a far cry from the "lots" that HA is claiming. It has been some time since we last had multiple fatalities due to enemy action.
                            Sounds more like a FITTER with that job description

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Is the DF a dangerous job? Mostly, no, but, like all jobs, it has it's moments, such as aircraft-related accidents in which a few people draw the short straw thru stupidity or neglect or acts of God and get wiped from the face of the earth in an instant. Mostly, it's quite safe but every now and again, the DF put people in harm's way, either as an act of State policy or sheer institutional stupidity/neglect and someone dies. The death rate in the DF is low, thankfully, and probably no better or worse than any other organisation that operates dangerous machinery.
                              The bond of men(and women) that Murph relates to is certainly not unique to the DF but has an extra edge by being military in nature.
                              regards
                              GttC

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