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  • 9 Liners and IFAK

    Originally posted by apod View Post
    I agree with S&S.We dont get issued proper IFAKs.We make our own.If you were to ask an ordinary soldier here what goes into an individual trauma kit or what a nine liner is they wouldnt have a clue.And dont even get me started on our total lack of training on using Morphine!They made a big deal of including CAT's and Israeli FFD's in the soldiers kit on the Late Late show a few years back.THEY ARENT ISSUED OUT! Medics have them.
    Thought I'd give this it's own thread...

    Does the DF teach troops to use the NATO 9 liner as used by ISAF? Or do they have to use the format as seen in the DF TAMs?

    Also, on subject of IFAK, what's the general consensus on what should be carried? On the top of my head I have a CAT on the outside of my chest rig, available to hand, and keep a small IFAK in it's own pouch on the chest rig (which the CAT is strapped to). It has an FFD, small bandage, burns bandage, rubber gloves, cheap "tuffcut" scissors, CCCD, My BA issued Battlefield 1st Aid Aide Memoir, Arret, Diorlyte and Nurofen plus for the squits and boo-boos respectively.

    Would infantry in the DF be expected to carry IV bags, and maybe starter kits either for the medic or be trained to use themselves? If so, do they exercise with that sort of kit packed?

    My own IFAK is made up of existing stuff I already had in standard 1st Aid Kits around the house, some of it is technically out of date but I keep it for training purposes, and I got the CAT thrown in for free into a deal I made recently whilst buying some gear for my company. Needless to say, non of it is issued, (other than the other FFD in my smock); nor have I had any training in the DF to treat or evac a casualty. Apparently, when we attack a position, we never sustain casualties ourselves
    SwiftandSure
    Closed Account
    Last edited by SwiftandSure; 3 May 2011, 11:28.

  • #2
    What first aid training does the irish army undergo prior to deployment overseas ?
    Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a soldier - Samuel Johnson

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    • #3
      Does the DF teach troops to use the NATO 9 liner as used by ISAF? Or do they have to use the format as seen in the DF TAMs?
      We use the format in the TAMS,but its seldom practiced at unit level.It should be.IMHO the nine liner is the way to go what with interoperability and all that.The Yanks have been using the 9 Liner for years even before afghanistan AFAIK so its not a new concept.

      Also, on subject of IFAK, what's the general consensus on what should be carried? On the top of my head I have a CAT on the outside of my chest rig, available to hand, and keep a small IFAK in it's own pouch on the chest rig (which the CAT is strapped to). It has an FFD, small bandage, burns bandage, rubber gloves, cheap "tuffcut" scissors, CCCD, My BA issued Battlefield 1st Aid Aide Memoir, Arret, Diorlyte and Nurofen plus for the squits and boo-boos respectively.
      To the best of my knowledge an IFAK and a personal trauma kit are two different beasts.An IFAK is where you keep your headache/squits/sore belly tablets etc etc.
      A trauma kit would be 2x CATs, 2x FFD(israeli type if possible),quick clot,curlex,possibly a "J" tube(sized for yourself) and 2x Morphine autoinjectors.None of the items i just listed are issued to anybody in the infantry in the DF.Even overseas.


      Would infantry in the DF be expected to carry IV bags, and maybe starter kits either for the medic or be trained to use themselves? If so, do they exercise with that sort of kit packed?
      No.But we should do both.Again.A disgrace.

      My own IFAK is made up of existing stuff I already had in standard 1st Aid Kits around the house, some of it is technically out of date but I keep it for training purposes, and I got the CAT thrown in for free into a deal I made recently whilst buying some gear for my company. Needless to say, non of it is issued, (other than the other FFD in my smock); nor have I had any training in the DF to treat or evac a casualty. Apparently, when we attack a position, we never sustain casualties ourselves
      If you go on any course in the NCOTW you will have a pain in your hole dealing with casualties.They are factored into every exercise.CASEVAC is a big thing with them.

      Originally posted by knocker View Post
      What first aid training does the irish army undergo prior to deployment overseas ?
      Basic occupational first aid refresher training.None of the training we should get.
      "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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      • #4
        Wow Apod! I'm actually surprised by your answer.

        I always had it in my mind that the PDF, while not being able to operate to it's potential due to lack of missions, were if anything, better trained than most other Western standing armies, as they have more time to train and specialise. While I still consider that to be the case with the PDF in most areas of soldiering, I'm shocked to read that there's a huge skill gap in this area of training.

        It sounds like the DF needs to pull it's thumb out soon. I thought it was bad enough that the RDF barely touch first aid and CASEVAC drills, but to hear the PDF is slow to adopt the SOPs of other operational armies when it comes to medical training and equipment sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. We should be learning from their mistakes, not wait for our own mistakes to happen.

        Even as a basic Signaller in the BA, not necessarily meant to be anywhere near a forward area, we'd rehearse CASEVAC drills and emergency 1st Aid in and out of En contact. Whether it be gunshot wounds, mine strikes or RTAs. Up until now I thought that was standard practice everywhere and that the RDF were just behind.

        I'm not slagging here, and this isn't a "Jaysus, you don't that, but the BA do" post; I'm genuinely surprised there's not more done in this area. I haven't done a first aid course for about 2 years now, and haven't touched combat 1st Aid since I left the BA. I consider my skill set to be rather low and would love to do a refresher course, learning new TTP of basic first response to trauma casualties and do exercises of same, particularly considering today's IED threat environment.

        I did wonder about the 9 liner against the TAMs CASEVAC format, as it made sense to me to teach the 9 liner for interoperability purposes, as you mentioned yourself. In fact, now I think of it, I'm gonna laminate a small 9 liner on one side and the TAMs CASEVAC insert on the other side and stick that in with my IFAK.

        Is there not a yearly TOET for 1st Aid outside of the Medical Corps?

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        • #5
          The morphine issue could well be down to Irish legislation (or more probably way of doing things), it is only in the last couple of years that Paramedics could administer anything apart from Oxygen and possibly Aspirin.

          Remember this is a country that sent people to get qualificiations or they payed for it at their own expense and then they won't let them put it into practice, and I'm not just talking about the DF.

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          • #6
            All PDF recruits receive a weeks medical training during recruit training and another week of it during 2-3* training.
            This covers basic 1st aid and battle field 1st aid levels 1 and 2.
            Some recruit platoons may also do the occupational 1st aid course but this is not standard.

            Every exercise ive been on from my recruit training onwards has had simulated casualties.
            On an exercise one person in every section will/should have a medical bag and another with a stretcher.

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            • #7
              The 9 liner is an American version of the METHANE report.

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              • #8
                The medical training handed out to PDF troops in Recruit Training and at Unit level is absolutely laughable.

                They don't even issue tourniquets.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hello Alaska View Post
                  The medical training handed out to PDF troops in Recruit Training and at Unit level is absolutely laughable.
                  It covers most things you need to know like types of wounds, control of bleeding, hemorrhage control, scene survey, types of care, chain of extraction, burns, chemical burns to the eyes, electrical burns, poisons, fractures, casevac, casevaereq, cpr, improvise stretchers etc etc.

                  They don't even issue tourniquets.
                  Yes they do.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Rhodes View Post
                    It covers most things you need to know like types of wounds, control of bleeding, hemorrhage control, scene survey, types of care, chain of extraction, burns, chemical burns to the eyes, electrical burns, poisons, fractures, casevac, casevaereq, cpr, improvise stretchers etc etc.
                    It's shite.

                    Most of what they teach you doesn't tie into battlefield first aid at all. What they do teach you, is covered so rarely that it doesn't allow any kind of skill development or continuity.

                    You take a Recce Platoon out of a generic Bn in the DF... Now, put them on the battlefield and start to introduce serious casualties. Without any actual medics there and just the Recce Platoon to treat and stabilise the wounded, watch the deaths pile up because of piss poor medical training.

                    I don't know how anyone can try defend the medical training given to Units outside of the Med Coy's. It's not good enough, simple as.

                    Yes they do.
                    I've yet to see a single member of my Bn ever issued a tourniquet.

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                    • #11
                      Ah but if they haven't been trained in their use would there be any point?

                      (not defending it by the way!)

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        Ah but if they haven't been trained in their use would there be any point?

                        (not defending it by the way!)
                        Which is exactly why the medical training at Unit level is so shite.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Hello Alaska View Post
                          Most of what they teach you doesn't tie into battlefield first aid at all.
                          Yes it does.

                          To use my above examples:-
                          Types of wounds - is it a contusion, laceration, incsision, puncture, gun shot wound etc.
                          Control of bleeding & hemorrhage control - to stop the casualty from bleeding to death.
                          Scene survey - safety, precautions, injury, no of casualties, need support etc.
                          Types of care - care under fire, tactical care, handing over casualty, care during extraction etc.
                          Chain of extraction - Pl Sgt, CS, casualty collection point, MAP.
                          Burns, chemical burns to the eyes, electrical burns, poisons - treatment of them.
                          Fractures - bones aren't bullet proof.
                          CASEVAC - casualty evacuation.
                          CASEVACREQ - calling in the helicopter, ambulance etc.
                          CPR - resuscitating the casualty.
                          Improvise stretchers - if others are being used or you have none.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Rhodes View Post
                            Yes it does.

                            To use my above examples:-
                            Types of wounds - is it a contusion, laceration, incsision, puncture, gun shot wound etc.
                            Completely basic stuff, even a civvie learns it. Not directly taught as Battlefield first aid.

                            Control of bleeding & hemorrhage control - to stop the casualty from bleeding to death.
                            When they start teaching and issuing tourniquets to Infantry troops, I'll consider the above to actually have been something I've been instructed on.

                            Just saying "You'll throw a tourniquet on it" or "Put a dressing on it, if it keeps bleeding just throw abouther dressing on it" isn't good enough.

                            Scene survey - safety, precautions, injury, no of casualties, need support etc.
                            When troops are taught the above, it's purely meant in a civilian sense and you know it.

                            Types of care - care under fire, tactical care, handing over casualty, care during extraction etc.
                            Deadly, now what happens when your platoon occupies a building and you've to stabilise casualties that need fluids, have arterial bleeds or whatever else and there's no Medic handy?

                            Types of care in the DF sense comes up a bit short.

                            Chain of extraction - Pl Sgt, CS, casualty collection point, MAP.
                            That's something you're taught anyway during Recruit Training.

                            Burns, chemical burns to the eyes, electrical burns, poisons - treatment of them.
                            Electrical burns? Poisons? Unless someone gets a crack of a taser while in contact or someone pisses in the water, that doesn't even remotely come under battlefield first aid. It isn't even taught by medics in a battlefield sense, it's taught in a purely civvie situation sense.

                            Fractures - bones aren't bullet proof.
                            That's great but again it's not taught in a battlefield sense nor does a fracture really come under battlefield first aid.

                            CASEVAC - casualty evacuation.
                            Again, CASEVAC drills are basic Infantry skills. They're not somethin taught by medics.

                            CASEVACREQ - calling in the helicopter, ambulance etc.
                            It's not exactly dealing with someone with an erterial bleed is it?

                            CPR - resuscitating the casualty.
                            Taught in a civilian sense, again.

                            Improvise stretchers - if others are being used or you have none.
                            Ok, I can make a stretcher out of two SRAAW's and two smocks.


                            The above is just about what Infantry soldiers need to know according to the DF. Anyone with a right mind, knows it's nowhere good enough.

                            Now, whether it's a case of maybe the DF needs to start running "Infantry Medic" Courses or some shite to plug the gap between the battlefield first aid carry on they teach us and what the Medics actually know, something needs to be done. Cause a Medic isn't always gonna be there and you need to be able to depend on your mates medical knowledge... The knowledge being shared with Line units at the minute, just isn't good enough

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                            • #15
                              I believe there are moves afoot to bring the DF up to Emergency First responder (EFR) level. This will also have military modules like Tourniquets, NPAs, Haeostatic dressings and Tactical Combat Casualty Care.

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