Defence Forces Artillery

[X-RayOne]

And not once did they bring artillery with them

They did, however, have no shortage of CAS or cav to support them. Which compensated for lack of arty.

Overseas, we never have CAS and limited cav, in terms of firepower on the vehicles.

So an alternative is bring arty for fire suport. But again it is limited by range of the weapon systems we have and more pointedly, by the fact that we are not mobile enough with arty.

I've said this many times before, our inf and cav are so much more mobile now than years before and capable of operating for extended periods away from a PB. Arty are still effectively using horse drawn guns in comparision.

We have enough guns for the establishment but imo we need to look more at mounted systems to keep pace with the rest of the fighting formations (especially as medium lift helis are way off)!

[TangoSierra]

I think the word you're all looking for is TOKENISM

[ropebag]

Is there any money in switching to the Denel G7 and its vastly superiour range?

not unless you fancy buying new helicopters as well. the G7 is about 1000kg heavier than the L119 Light Gun and falls well outside the weight a 139 could lift.

a modern UH-60 Blackhawk could lift it, with barely any fuel, no internal cargo or passengers, and probably not after about 10am anywhere south of Marseille. an AS532 Cougar could carry it more comfortably, but not by much.

a far easier, cheaper and quicker way to get around this problem is to purchase something like the Spike NLOS missile - 25-30km range, four missiles fired from a launcher that weighs about the same as a Ford Ranger pick-up. L119 and the 120mm are fine - excellent - area bombardment weapons, but both have a range issue, and without PGM's they are of limited use in operations or locations with tight ROE's.

[ropebag]

actually, if you were thinking of going up to the weight of the G7 you may as well go for the M777 155mm gun - the weight/mobility is about the same, while the M777 has commonality written all over it, and the ability to fire PGM's at a significantly greater range than the G7.

having asked a mate who knew someone who'd looked at it, the answer to it was the same in every nation who'd looked at buying it - the range is great, but if i have to move up to thjat weight i can get a far better gun in the M777...

[EUFighter]

The Australians have replaced the L118's with the M777, good fixed Base gun
If you want something more mobile then Denel offer the G7 in an automatic turret, the T7. It fit on a Mowag Piranha3 and was trialled by the US Army as a support weapon for the Stärker Combat teams. Could be part of the Piranha MLU?

[ropebag]

...Could be part of the Piranha MLU?

Tbh, from what I've heard about the physical condition of a sizable proportion of the MOWAG fleet, they don't need and upgrade, they need replacing.

I take the view that the numbers of MOWAG are stretched so thin that you can't afford to lose a single hull, even to something so critical as offensive support. Sadly, the answer as in so much else, is money. According to Irish doctrine you need the best part of 200 APC MOWAG - but open source stuff suggests that less than 60 of the original 80 or so are in any usable condition - if ISR and Screening roles, as well as a fire support role are included you're talking about a total fleet of 300...

[northie]

Tbh, from what I've heard about the physical condition of a sizable proportion of the MOWAG fleet, they don't need and upgrade, they need replacing.

I take the view that the numbers of MOWAG are stretched so thin that you can't afford to lose a single hull, even to something so critical as offensive support. Sadly, the answer as in so much else, is money. According to Irish doctrine you need the best part of 200 APC MOWAG - but open source stuff suggests that less than 60 of the original 80 or so are in any usable condition - if ISR and Screening roles, as well as a fire support role are included you're talking about a total fleet of 300...

Yep, lets have a look at the Australian LAV replacement competition aka LAND 400. If the terrex 3 comes out on top lets stick in an order for 200 and have a production line right here in Ireland...... sure if they banged the prototype together in three weeks as is described..... http://defense-studies.blogspot.com/...nd-terrex.html

[Sparky42]

Yep, lets have a look at the Australian LAV replacement competition aka LAND 400. If the terrex 3 comes out on top lets stick in an order for 200 and have a production line right here in Ireland...... sure if they banged the prototype together in three weeks as is described..... http://defense-studies.blogspot.com/...nd-terrex.html

And how viable would it be to start up a production line for that 200 and how much of an increase per unit would that cost? To me it would make more sense just to pick whatever vehicle type wanted and tack on an order to someones order, and hopefully benefit from the great production run.

[ropebag]

And how viable would it be to start up a production line for that 200 and how much of an increase per unit would that cost? To me it would make more sense just to pick whatever vehicle type wanted and tack on an order to someones order, and hopefully benefit from the great production run.

You mean something like whatever FRES finally threw up?

Geographically convenient as well...

[pym]

And how viable would it be to start up a production line for that 200 and how much of an increase per unit would that cost? To me it would make more sense just to pick whatever vehicle type wanted and tack on an order to someones order, and hopefully benefit from the great production run.

Full production is probably not viable, but manufacturing parts and enabling Timoney/Terrex to use its Irish location as a service/logistics hub for the Euro region would presumably be a help in trying to secure other Euro contracts.

[northie]

And how viable would it be to start up a production line for that 200 and how much of an increase per unit would that cost? To me it would make more sense just to pick whatever vehicle type wanted and tack on an order to someones order, and hopefully benefit from the great production run.

We never buy COTs. We always wanted it tweaked or gold plated to bastardise a vehicle into doing multiple roles. If we're going be shafted, we might as well get a few jobs out of it as well..... and at least have the ability to go down the road to, collar a technician and drag him to the curragh rather than waiting around for MOWAG and BAE to arrive from overseas when a major problem is found......

[DeV]

not unless you fancy buying new helicopters as well. the G7 is about 1000kg heavier than the L119 Light Gun and falls well outside the weight a 139 could lift.

swap that 1 for a 2

a modern UH-60 Blackhawk could lift it, with barely any fuel, no internal cargo or passengers, and probably not after about 10am anywhere south of Marseille. an AS532 Cougar could carry it more comfortably, but not by much.

a far easier, cheaper and quicker way to get around this problem is to purchase something like the Spike NLOS missile - 25-30km range, four missiles fired from a launcher that weighs about the same as a Ford Ranger pick-up. L119 and the 120mm are fine - excellent - area bombardment weapons, but both have a range issue, and without PGM's they are of limited use in operations or locations with tight ROE's.

if rarely (if ever) see SP Arty as an unslung load.

If it is a vehicle patrol, the SP arty can go with it
If it is a foot patrol, what we have is fine
If it is a heli patrol, what we have is fine

Tbh, from what I've heard about the physical condition of a sizable proportion of the MOWAG fleet, they don't need and upgrade, they need replacing.

I take the view that the numbers of MOWAG are stretched so thin that you can't afford to lose a single hull, even to something so critical as offensive support. Sadly, the answer as in so much else, is money. According to Irish doctrine you need the best part of 200 APC MOWAG - but open source stuff suggests that less than 60 of the original 80 or so are in any usable condition - if ISR and Screening roles, as well as a fire support role are included you're talking about a total fleet of 300...

AFAIK we don't have enough to equip an Mech Inf Bn any more.

AFAIK a major issue was parts and tech availability, as a result a larger amount of milage was probably distributed over a small fleet

[TangoSierra]

Mech Inf Bn - fantasy!!

[ropebag]

...if rarely (if ever) see SP Arty as an unslung load.

If it is a vehicle patrol, the SP arty can go with it..

its not SP, its towed - it has an SP (theoretical) version, but that weighs about 17 tons...

the G7 isn't a super-duper 105, its a really shit 155 - thats why no one buys it.

[Graylion]

The Australians have replaced the L118's with the M777, good fixed Base gun
If you want something more mobile then Denel offer the G7 in an automatic turret, the T7. It fit on a Mowag Piranha3 and was trialled by the US Army as a support weapon for the Stärker Combat teams. Could be part of the Piranha MLU?

I am a serious fan of that. The T7 turret is a fantastic piece of kit.