Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Irishmilitaryonline.com Submission to Green Paper/White Paper on Defence

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by DeV View Post
    iHahahahaha cheques and cash have suppose to have been on their way out since the 70s!!!

    For years people have been keeping the cash under the mattress, possibly because they distrust banks...... Maybe they are right!
    When was the last time you wrote a cheque, I haven;'t written one since 1999, in the late 1980's cheques were written by most people on a weekly basis, that day is is long gone.

    The world changes and so do defence priorties, ATCP has traditionally been the dominant role for the defence forces, but its changing, as will the way the garda provide policing services.

    As i said talking about one service winning over another is the wrong way to look at it; talking about ATCP, cash escorts and the provo threat would be the wrong attitude for the army to take IMHO, the future lies with European defence tasks.

    Change can be good for any organisation, which was better, the defence forces of the early 1990;/s or the defence forces of today? There were legions of naysayers and private frazers at the time of the last white paper, who ended up being wrong.
    Last edited by paul g; 24 June 2013, 14:13.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by paul g View Post
      When was the last time you wrote a cheque, I haven;'t written one since 1999, in the late 1980's cheques were written by most people on a weekly basis, that day is long gone
      I wrote about 15 last year.

      It is still very common in the B2B SME sector.


      the future lies with European
      Does it?
      The EU has stood by while a number of wars have gone on.
      There is no mutual defence pact.

      Who is to say that the CFSP means that we need an army at all? Potentionally we could just give the EU a few million a year and disband the army!?

      Comment


      • #33
        Who is to say that the CFSP means that we need an army at all?
        Because the 'C' in CFSP stands for Common, not 'Central'.

        about ATCP, cash escorts and the provo threat would be the wrong attitude for the army to take IMHO
        You forgot about manning decrepit barracks in county towns and participating in St Patricks Day parades. Critical defence tasks for the old Army.
        Last edited by Aidan; 24 June 2013, 15:08.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Aidan View Post
          You forgot about manning decrepit barracks in county towns and participating in St Patricks Day parades. Critical defence tasks for the old Army.
          yeop it was, there was a time when spending on defence and all; government services was mostly on wages and politicans made sure that money was spread around the country, hence why irish teachers/policemen/etc are so well paid by european standards. .

          Part of the country's problem is that when the good times came that attitude carried on.
          Last edited by paul g; 24 June 2013, 15:55.

          Comment


          • #35
            Part of the country's problem is that when the good times came that attitude carried on.
            To be fair, a lot of the causal factors for the 'Tiger II' (2001-8) came from the political desire to spread economic goodies around the country. The real Tiger years were urban centric, as is/will be the recovery. All of which makes the political situation even more interesting.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by DeV View Post
              if that arises, and it will, then the need for cash escorts will be gone.
              i think that need disappeared years ago actually.
              RGJ

              ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

              The Rifles

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Aidan View Post
                Because the 'C' in CFSP stands for Common, not 'Central'.



                You forgot about manning decrepit barracks in county towns and participating in St Patricks Day parades. Critical defence tasks for the old Army.

                Who's to say that!?

                The barracks have been consolidated by around 50%

                Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
                i think that need disappeared years ago actually.
                Your not quoting me there...... Did it?

                In the last few years there was a case of a CIT vehicle being robbed before it met with its escort and another of a Garda Detective being shot died without having a chance to draw his weapon.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
                  i think that need disappeared years ago actually.
                  i think whts really gone is the time when the Gardai can set defence policy by deciding that they aren't going to be armed, meaning someone else has to do the 'Armed' bit of policing.

                  escorting a cash van in somewhere that isn't downtown Homs or Aleppo is a police task. Gardai could be as 'tooled up' as any of the Mets' firearms sections and would be easily capable of fending off the gangs the Army deters by doing cash escorts, its just they choose not to, and the government has a pretty shallow pool of alternative options.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Who's to say that!?
                    This.
                    http://europa.eu/legislation_summari.../ai0026_en.htm

                    These tasks are shared, not centralised.


                    The barracks have been consolidated by around 50%
                    Hence the use of the word 'old'.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Aidan View Post
                      To be fair, a lot of the causal factors for the 'Tiger II' (2001-8) came from the political desire to spread economic goodies around the country. The real Tiger years were urban centric, as is/will be the recovery. All of which makes the political situation even more interesting.
                      Oh I'm sure mickey martin has looked at olli Rehn and his friends in the centre party in Finland and others in the ALDE.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Aidan View Post
                        Plenty of room for ops to be conduct in our (the EU's and by extension Ireland's) name without an army.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                          i think whts really gone is the time when the Gardai can set defence policy by deciding that they aren't going to be armed, meaning someone else has to do the 'Armed' bit of policing.

                          escorting a cash van in somewhere that isn't downtown Homs or Aleppo is a police task. Gardai could be as 'tooled up' as any of the Mets' firearms sections and would be easily capable of fending off the gangs the Army deters by doing cash escorts, its just they choose not to, and the government has a pretty shallow pool of alternative options.
                          There is/was plenty of armed Gardai but not enough to do all the tasks!

                          Armed Gardai don't deter armed criminals that has been shown time and again! No DF cash escort has been challenged

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            The first part of your post is possibly the most dangerous thing I've ever heard from a soldier. In a democracy the army should have nothing whatsoever to do with law and order. The army exists to fight enemies of the state. Use them for law and order and soon the people become the enemies of the state. Soldiers kill enemies, or they aren't really soldiers.
                            I am sorry you feel that.Before i continue i would like to clarify my position.I am not advocating the Army should have primacy in the policing of the state.Far from it.Soldiers are soldiers not policemen.I am talking about what happens should the country face an all out anarchy situation IE police stations being burned,police killed and a total breakdown of law and order.In that situation a countries army is its last best hope of restoring order.(Fat lot of good your navy will be then BTW)

                            And DeV, no soldier can be "ordered to take a life" in any way. He may open fire in defence Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. A garda can do all that and more if he's armed.
                            I think you need to review that statement.Under normal circumstances you are correct and the guidance document sets out what we can and can't do.But that's under the normal rule of civil law.In a situation like I outlined above it is highly likely that if we had armed mobs roaming the streets and killing police that martial law would be enacted until the sitaution could be stabilised and handed back to the police.In that situation the rules would be different.very,very different.We are talking about a "lethal rioting" situation.Thankfully we have never seen that in the republic.But yes soldiers CAN and have been ordered to kill people.Civilian police cannot be ordered to do the same.
                            I don't think its healthy to deploy your army amongst your own people. Fortunately our government agrees and has made sure that the soldier on the street is legally no more than an armed civilian and apart from the normal sentry rules, can do nothing except as a kind of auxiliary to a cop. This is good.
                            Totally agree.We serve the civil power.Period.I hope we never have to deploy on the streets.We can if we have to though and the only people who would make that decision are the Government the people elected.
                            "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by DeV View Post
                              There is/was plenty of armed Gardai but not enough to do all the tasks!

                              Armed Gardai don't deter armed criminals that has been shown time and again! No DF cash escort has been challenged
                              the last bit is
                              not true

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I am sorry you feel that.Before i continue i would like to clarify my position.I am not advocating the Army should have primacy in the policing of the state.Far from it.Soldiers are soldiers not policemen.I am talking about what happens should the country face an all out anarchy situation IE police stations being burned,police killed and a total breakdown of law and order.In that situation a countries army is its last best hope of restoring order.(Fat lot of good your navy will be then BTW)
                                This is the underlying basis of the nation state as we know it. And the first role of every military. Acknowledging it is not the same thing as saying that the army will get involved in politics.
                                "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X