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  • #91
    MOD:Back on topic folks.The thread is starting to stray into iffy territory.
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Aidan View Post
      And we're talking about the need for a 'massive show of force' now, on the streets of a western European country with a relatively low crime rate, in 2013? Seriously?
      No my point is that the DF don't need to do CIT irrespective of how well equipped or not they are, it's a jobs for the boys scheme that ultimately is costing the taxpayer money (directly and indirectly) and DF time that could be better spent elsewhere within the Defence portfolio. So hopefully it'll be written off as part of the green/white paper.

      Comment


      • #93
        Just an aside, as has been mentioned earlier in the thread, the PIRA had General Order 8, not to engage with the Irish Army. Do the current lot have similar concerns / restraints?
        'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
        'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
        Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
        He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
        http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
          Just an aside, as has been mentioned earlier in the thread, the PIRA had General Order 8, not to engage with the Irish Army. Do the current lot have similar concerns / restraints?
          i rather doubt it - the current lot are the really, really, really desperate end of armed Republicanism, they are unlikely to hold to the niceties that PIRA believed appropriate. on top of that is that there is often a difference between the political theorist who writes the 'rules', and the utter moron the political theorist has convinced that an action liable to see him killed or in prison for life is a good idea.

          as another aside, if PIRA were so wedded to the idea of not engaging the DF, why would the DF, when carrying out their duties, need to be armed? surely if their mere presence is enough to get PIRA to cancel a robbery/attack/whatever, the 'escort' needs merely to be a single soldier, unarmed, sat in the passenger seat of the cash truck/whatever with his feet on the dashboard and catching up on some sleep?

          or are we not quite that confident in the idea that 'AlphabetIRA' will not engage the DF?

          Comment


          • #95
            A possible ending of the “triple lock” mechanism before Irish Defence Forces participate in overseas missions may form part of a Green Paper on defence.

            The paper will be brought to Cabinet before the summer recess, and will include a review of the lock which requires UN, government and Dáil approval before Defence Force personnel become involved. After consultation a final White Paper on defence, forming the basis for policy over the next decade, will be published by June 2014.

            Minister of State for Defence Paul Kehoe told the Dáil “everyone’s views on the triple lock will be taken into consideration”.

            Fianna Fáil defence spokesman Seán Ó Fearghaíl had expressed concern over media reports at the weekend that the Government would examine the triple lock mechanism.

            Mr Ó Fearghaíl said Minister for Defence Alan Shatter had never explicitly called for neutrality to be abandoned but “his distaste for neutrality is manifest from virtually all his public utterances”.

            The Kildare South TD said “Fine Gael has previous history in this regard”, introducing legislation 10 years ago to remove the mechanism.

            Mr Kehoe said “nobody will be driving anything without the public and the Dáil being very much involved following the publication of the Green Paper”.

            A possible ending of the “triple lock” mechanism before Irish Defence Forces participate in overseas missions may form part of a Green Paper on defence.

            The paper will be brought to Cabinet before the summer recess, and will include a review of the lock which requires UN, government and Dáil approval before Defence Force personnel become involved. After consultation a final White Paper on defence, forming the basis for policy over the next decade, will be published by June 2014.

            Minister of State for Defence Paul Kehoe told the Dáil “everyone’s views on the triple lock will be taken into consideration”.

            Fianna Fáil defence spokesman Seán Ó Fearghaíl had expressed concern over media reports at the weekend that the Government would examine the triple lock mechanism.

            Mr Ó Fearghaíl said Minister for Defence Alan Shatter had never explicitly called for neutrality to be abandoned but “his distaste for neutrality is manifest from virtually all his public utterances”.

            The Kildare South TD said “Fine Gael has previous history in this regard”, introducing legislation 10 years ago to remove the mechanism.

            Mr Kehoe said “nobody will be driving anything without the public and the Dáil being very much involved following the publication of the Green Paper”.

            A possible ending of the “triple lock” mechanism before Irish Defence Forces participate in overseas missions may form part of a Green Paper on defence.

            The paper will be brought to Cabinet before the summer recess, and will include a review of the lock which requires UN, government and Dáil approval before Defence Force personnel become involved. After consultation a final White Paper on defence, forming the basis for policy over the next decade, will be published by June 2014.

            Minister of State for Defence Paul Kehoe told the Dáil “everyone’s views on the triple lock will be taken into consideration”.

            Fianna Fáil defence spokesman Seán Ó Fearghaíl had expressed concern over media reports at the weekend that the Government would examine the triple lock mechanism.

            Mr Ó Fearghaíl said Minister for Defence Alan Shatter had never explicitly called for neutrality to be abandoned but “his distaste for neutrality is manifest from virtually all his public utterances”.

            The Kildare South TD said “Fine Gael has previous history in this regard”, introducing legislation 10 years ago to remove the mechanism.

            Mr Kehoe said “nobody will be driving anything without the public and the Dáil being very much involved following the publication of the Green Paper”.

            http://www.irishtimes.com/news/polit...aper-1.1443847

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by SwiftandSure View Post
              No my point is that the DF don't need to do CIT irrespective of how well equipped or not they are, it's a jobs for the boys scheme that ultimately is costing the taxpayer money (directly and indirectly) and DF time that could be better spent elsewhere within the Defence portfolio. So hopefully it'll be written off as part of the green/white paper.
              The DF doesn't decide to do an ATCP operation (be it CIT or something else). It has to be requested by a senior Garda. It is the Gardai that decide if they need DF support, not the other way around.

              Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
              Just an aside, as has been mentioned earlier in the thread, the PIRA had General Order 8, not to engage with the Irish Army. Do the current lot have similar concerns / restraints?
              It wasn't just not to engage the Irish army, it was also the GS. Any it never stopped them!

              There was/is also a lot more terrorist / criminal groups around than the PIRA.

              Comment


              • #97
                MOD:Final warning.Get back on topic and drop the CIT discussion.Points will accrue to those who ignore this.
                Last edited by apod; 27 June 2013, 13:25.
                "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Can someone tell me who we are neutral against?

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by expat01 View Post
                    Can someone tell me who we are neutral against?
                    We are non-aligned (eg not in NATO)

                    Non-belligerent (ie we don't take sides in war)

                    Comment


                    • The idea that are non-aligned is such farcical nonsense that the Soviet Union wouldn't let us join the UN.
                      Non belligerent in which war? Like the UK and Germany were in Vietnam? We were belligerents in the Congolese civil war.
                      Finland wasn't neutral. It was too scared of Russia to join NATO, but not about to stop preparing for the next Russian invasion. Austria was neutral by declaration of the allies. Switzerland is Neutral.
                      Ireland wouldnt agree to join the military alliance we expressly and openly relied on protect us. That made us Holland and Belgium. We deserved what they got.

                      Comment


                      • Of course, one way to get the crusties and other lefties onside is to point out that the triple lock allows the UK and USA (as members of the security council) to effectively veto Irish involvement in overseas action.

                        The protest marches by Eirigi and other great unwashed will be organised by the end of the week!
                        'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                        'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                        Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                        He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                        http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
                          Just an aside, as has been mentioned earlier in the thread, the PIRA had General Order 8, not to engage with the Irish Army. Do the current lot have similar concerns / restraints?
                          General order 8 did not specifically relate to the "Free state Army" but to all the security forces. It was all too frequently ignored.


                          Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                            General order 8 did not specifically relate to the "Free state Army" but to all the security forces. It was all too frequently ignored.
                            I know that it was viewed as a guideline rather than an order!
                            'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                            'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                            Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                            He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                            http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

                            Comment


                            • In any event criminals don't follow any rules, even their own.


                              Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                              Comment


                              • Taken from an asnwer in Dail [Thursday 27th June 2013]

                                Green Paper on Defence

                                227. Deputy Andrew Doyle asked the Minister for Defence the discussions he has had with officials in his Department and the Irish Defence Forces regarding a policy review and a detailed discussion document of Irish defence policy; if it is proposed to amend the triple lock system that is currently in place where deployment of the Irish Defence Forces requires the approval of the Government, Dáil Éireann and a UN mandate; if he will detail other discussions held with officials regarding new policy; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [31331/13]

                                Minister for Defence (Deputy Alan Shatter): The White Paper on Defence, published in 2000, has provided the policy framework for Defence for the last thirteen years. In the period since its publication, there have been significant changes in the defence and security environment and the defence policy framework has continued to evolve. In this context, the Government decided that there is a requirement to prepare a new White Paper on Defence. This will provide the policy framework for Defence, in all its aspects, for the next decade.

                                Following Government approval, I initiated the preparation of a Green Paper on Defence. The Green Paper is intended to inform and stimulate a mature and informed debate about Ireland’s defence policy. When published, it will initiate a broad public consultative process which will provide for members of the public and interest groups to input their views as part of the process of developing the new White Paper on Defence.

                                An interdepartmental group comprising representatives from the Departments of Defence, Taoiseach, Foreign Affairs and Trade, Justice and Equality as well as the Defence Forces and An Garda Síochána have undertaken a defence and security assessment. This is incorporated within the Green Paper. I have had broad discussions on the Green Paper with officials from my Department and the Defence Forces. In addition, the draft Green Paper was circulated to all Government Departments for their observations. All of these inputs have contributed to the final document.

                                The Green Paper will set out an overview of the current defence policy framework, the changes that have occurred since the publication of the White Paper on Defence (2000) and an assessment of the challenges in the defence and security environment. These issues inform a number of policy focused questions which will be set out in the Green Paper and are intended to guide submissions.

                                I hope to publish the Green Paper and initiate the White Paper public consultative process in the coming weeks. It is anticipated that the new White Paper on Defence will be approved by Government and published before June 2014.

                                Comment

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