ED/LD

[The Joker]

It occured to me the other day that there is a gross mis-understanding of ED and LD. Even within the medical corps I have come accross medics who didnt know what they stood for and because of that gave people the wrong disposal even though they were 3 stars. These people were not from my unit. However some NCO's put people in Kitchens when on LD even though that would aggravate the injury.

For example:

A private comes to me with a back injury, its not that serious, it needs rest. I put that person on LD and send them off. They then come back to me a few hours later in even more pain because they were put in the kitchen and had to lift heavy trays in and out of the dishwasher. Even though the rest of their unit were doing lectures. That person then has to be put on ED for two days. Does anybody see the logic?

Its the same with ED, people being confined to bed. This is not the case and really depends on peoples circumstances. Not only is it not necessary most of the time but can damage peoples morale when they are told to stay in bed and have dinner brought down to them.

[FCA Trooper]

what pisses me off is fakers,the lazy s**tes who go on LD because they couldnt be arsed training with the rest.

[The Joker]

You cant just go on LD, you have to be put on LD by a Medic

[greyfox]

I`ll ask all ncos a question.How many ncos do you see on sick parade etc during a weeks camp? None usually, most ncos unless dying wouldnt go near a medic. ED /ld is a way for wasters to doss. 95% who go on them are those who dont give a toss and most of the other 5% are people with bad feet because of the boots. Come the friday session its like the mejigore, miracle cures all around. I` ve seen people on crutches throw them away to go dancing. Medics are not doctors, they have not got the training to deal with these people. Rather then risk legal action aginst them or the army they put them on ld /ed. I` d do the same in their position. How do you tell if a person is making back injury up? I` d be interested to hear views on my opinion from any medics who have served as camp medics with corps or inf units.
Sorry for tarring the legitimately injured /sick with the same brush. Its not you I am cribbing about.

[Liachta Cultaca]

Greyfox,

Good Point.Everything you said is true. You can spot them a mile away and the same faces come back camp after camp. Depends on the nature of the illness they present with, but I find that if you threaten them with RTUing them, they sometimes will come clean about malingering.

Malingering is also supposed to be a chargeable offence but I never have seen this law being enforced.

If they are returned to the unit i.e sent home they should only be paid for the days up till then.

[The Joker]

Originally posted by greyfox
I`ll ask all ncos a question.How many ncos do you see on sick parade etc during a weeks camp? None usually, most ncos unless dying wouldnt go near a medic.

1) What is the number of NCO's to Privates, I suspect that there are a lot more privates. So obviously there will be more privates on sick parade. Take away those NCO's who sit on there arse all day and dont get the chance to get injured. How many have you got left.

2)

95% who go on them are those who dont give a toss and most of the other 5% are people with bad feet because of the boots.

That is bull, any medics who has ever been on a medical camp will tell you that the most common thing they encounter in their medical career is BLISTERS and lots of them.

3)

Rather then risk legal action aginst them or the army they put them on ld /ed.

Actually one of the most effictive ways I found as a cure for this is to admit them to the curragh. One fella I treated during the summer spend 3 days in an empty ward in the curragh hospital. Lets just say he was a little more than eager to get out, and didnt even look at the MAP for the rest of the week. Most of the time when you tell them that you will send them to hospital they will say that they dont think they are sick enough to go to hospital.

[yellowjacket]

What medical training do RDF medics have to make these pseudo-clinical judgements? Is there oversight?

[The Joker]

I assume that you mean about admitting people to hospital. Well we dont actually do it, we simply ask the nurses or doctors to give them a thorough exam as we have found nothing wrong with them. And maybe keep them in for observation.

[yellowjacket]

That's reassuring, how about putting people on LD/ED? Still would seem to involve a fair amount of judgement calls......

[The Joker]

Yea but given the amount of experience I have gained, 4 years. 1000 people this year alone. You see the same types of injuries again and again and again. And if it turns out that the person who you suspected of having something wrong with actually did well then its a job well done on your part.:D

[Bravo20]

I have met good medics and bad medics in my time, those that are good I have no problem with their decisions those that are bad I have no choice but to accept their decisions as they are the senior medical person.

One thing that people forget though is that it is not good enough just to let the private go to sick parade on his/her own, the orderly sgt should go with them. This means that the medic can explain the impact of his treatment. I'm talking about the LD/ED not the specifics. If someone is ED it usually means that they are too sick to be out of bed or else are unable to walk. LD can have various restrictions, it could mean that the person cannot march or take part in tactics but can attend classroom lessons, in other cases it could be to avoid lifting heavy loads. If the orderly sgt isn't there then he doesn't get the full info. Also I always remind people who are on ED that that means they are confined to the barracks and they cannot drink.

[Pablo]

I used to do gp locums in 94 and part of that was to see soldiers in their homes, I have to say a lot of illness seemed to be related to upcoming border duty That said there were some ill soldiers who despite severe illness would not be too willing to go to Brichins.. something about length of stay?
I never understood the ED/LD thing.

I do remember an NCO who sustained a beesting while building a wall at home requesting a day off - I wasnt going to argue -I passed his house later the same day and sure enough he was out with the bricks and mortar.

[Goldie fish]

I remember being put on LD once in my service,reluctantly,during a PSO,after my knee popped(old injury returned). I was able to attend lectures,but not take part in tactics....however there was nothing stopping me following the exercise as it took part in a 4 mile patrol.......
Another individual scraped a knee and ended up in the hospital...(Collins Barracks) the ole lonely ward syndrome again..

On another occasion an individual who was on LD suffering from "headaches" who had a miraculous recovery on the last night of camp,and was promptly informed she would be on duty,due to her new found health. Tears were shed,and yours truly ended up on duty instead.......

[Groundhog]

A medic isn't qualified to dole out LD or ED or make a diagnosis. Thats what doctors are for. Working in a kitchen is light duty. If the soldier in question gets a job for which he feels unable the onus is on him or her to inform the NCO of this fact and the wise NCO will get someone else to do the job. This leaves the gate open for the waster to do nothing of course but thats the way it is.

Its amazing the amount of chronic illness suffered by some soldiers when an exercise or unpleasant deployment comes up. Last year a private of my acquaintance was certified by a civillian doctor as unfit to work until further notice. He must have visited Lourdes, because as soon as the PSO exercise was over he turned up hale and hearty. The same doctor [ MOD: Edited. defamation of character] And I hear that in Dublin there is a soldier who has been on sick leave for 5 years. Nothing terminal I hope.

Anyway one of the productivity proposals made under the benchmarking is that after 6 months sick leave the soldier goes on hlaf pay and after 12 months its on social welfare. Smith has proposed that this sick leave be aggregate so that after 6 months in total in his or her service any further period of sick leave is at half pay and so on.

But doctors have top take a part of the responsibility. I mean giving a fellow a cert for a bee sting. Come on. Irish doctors are afraid to tell people soldier or civilian that they are malingering.

[Bailer]

I've only been ED once and that was a broken bone in my foot. I was told I could do everything except Marching / Tactics Kitchens and FP / GUARD. So I went around for the next few days observing lessons. and then went on the beer the last night. I deserved that night out believe me! But my foot was still sore and I was still on Crutches.

The Miracle Thursday recovery is very common! I remember a guy who was LD'd for the week and suddenly was down in the mess before everyone else. You can also get the Lonely ward syndrome in the Glen when everyone goes out training and you're left in the Bed!!