Equipment,what else do we require?

[Johnny2Stripes]

How much investment would the DF need to get up to scratch? I'm not talking about buying hundreds of tanks and fighter jets, submarines etc, but just the basics.....
From other threads it appears we need heli's - how much would they cost initially and to maintain? We need recce vehicles - how much would these cost etc?
What else do we need, and how much would it cost...any ideas?

[Victor]

Replace the Nissans with a proper military 4x4 instead of borrowing Landrovers from the British in Liberia.

Company / Battallion level air defence - ManPADS or small vehicle-based SAM/gun systems.

[Shrike21]

How much investment would the DF need to get up to scratch?

Sustained investment of 1.8% of GDP for the Next 10 years followed by a reduction to 1.5% thereafter.
That would allow Ireland to develop defence capabilities on par with other similarly sized European Nation's I.E Finland, Norway and Denmark.
Anything besides this is just b******s really, and isn't taking defence seriously

[Docman]

Taking the standard Irish Infantry Battalion as a guideline (Asd deployments will rarely be larger in size than Battalion +)

Section- Irish Infantry section will be well equipped once all the new equipment comes online and widespread -GL, Radios, etc. PLCE needs to be DPMed (Which is happening I think). More NBC gear and training. GPS system has to become more widespread (Rather than a cool gadget that we see sometimes, we need to do some serious training with it)

Platoon- Same as Section. 9mm BAP needs to be replaced by either new BAP's or better still, a new pistol in new NATO callibre

Company- Need for dedicated ATGW at Coy Level. (Javelin). The 60mm Mortar replacement is long awaited. Also, a new Manpads organic to the Coy (Mistral, Stinger)

Battalion- Need for Organic AD system both gun and missile based. There is a need for extra Mowags if only to equip 2 1/2 Battalions. Preferably, we should have Mowags for each Battalion but 2 1/2 Bn's is realistic for now. (1 Bn deployed, 1 on EURRF alert and a training element). Need for armoured Recce vehicle (Mowag Eagle, Uparmoured HMWVV). Lots more TES equipment.

And a big point that I have to make is that these extras should be widely available to both reserve and PDF. It is no use having the equipment and not being able to use. Currently, with troops being deployed overseas, there is plenty time for familiarisation but in an emergency, most troops have no idea how to operate some of the more modern equipment.
More than new equipment, there is need for a more extensive training regime amongst PDF and RDF, even more so than already.

(Note I deliberately dealt with the battalion for the moment)

[Victor]

Body armour

Armoured fighting vehicles / infantry fighting vehicles / infantry support vehicles.

[FMolloy]

Organic AD assets would only be needed on overseas missions, and then only in specific circumstances.

[Groundhog]

Taking the standard Irish Infantry Battalion as a guideline (Asd deployments will rarely be larger in size than Battalion +)

Lets hope we never actually have to defend the country then. The actual basic infantry equipment is adequate except the old GPMGs are wanked. Most of them are 30 years old and won't be replaced until someone is seriously injured by a defective weapon. All pistols are crap. Nobody actually carries them on the ground. A GPS is a nice toy. A map and compass does the same job and the batteries never run out. The Javelin is not a guided missile and the new 60 is coming onstream as we speak. Air defence is virtually non-existent. A battalion should have an AD Pln, which was actually proposed 5 years ago. At the moment AD consists of MAGS and HMGs on AA mounts. Which pre-supposes that an enemy attack won't combine air and ground assaults. In fact the DF seems to have ignored the advent of aeroplanes altogether. Also we need Pln Commanders actually present in the battalions not off in Galway becoming accountants and solicitors.

More than new equipment, there is need for a more extensive training regime amongst PDF and RDF, even more so than already.

Very true. The army's policy and ethos in this regard is, to a large extent,shite.

[ias]

Does anybody else feel that the DF need, in addition to the PIIIs, a smaller 4x4 APC, as a replacement for the M3s, for on-island tasks such as border patrol, atcp, etc.?

As the vehicles being mentioned (e.g. Eagle) as the LTVs, apparently semi-officially, are 4-5 seaters would these really be sufficient?

IAS

[Victor]

Originally posted by FMolloy
Organic AD assets would only be needed on overseas missions, and then only in specific circumstances.

Like as part of the EU RRF.

Originally posted by Groundhog
A GPS is a nice toy. A map and compass does the same job and the batteries never run out.

Ah, but GPS means you can (usually) find yourself on said map when lost. Gallileo is expected to be much more accurate than the public version of GPS.

Originally posted by Groundhog
The Javelin is not a guided missile

**NOT** guided?

Originally posted by Groundhog
Air defence is virtually non-existent. A battalion should have an AD Pln, which was actually proposed 5 years ago. At the moment AD consists of MAGS and HMGs on AA mounts. Which pre-supposes that an enemy attack won't combine air and ground assaults.

Sure why combine air and ground assaults when nap-of-the-earth of medium level bombing could destroy any Irish position - why risk their ground troops?

[EDIT]Apologies to FMolloy [/EDIT]

[Aidan]

Victor, the RRF is to be used as a modular force, meaning that forces from across the EU would be combined as per the mission profile. Were air defences needed, they would be provided by AD assets of other EU states, like the French, the UK, the Dutch. Organic AD of the type you're (and Docman) proposing is expensive and of little utility in reality (only useful in a very limited number of ways). If you were really concerned with AD, you'd be looking at a much more comprehensive SAM/Radar system. Be better spending limited resources on things that are much more likely to be needed, such as more and better body armour, and training, Armoured Patrol Vehicles and training. And then maybe some form of heavy armoured support. And training.

Have a look at NATO armies, you'll find that there are very few of these in service and the newer ones are much more capable than MANPADS/Guns mixes like the Avenger. The HUMRAAM system the Norwegians use is a good example.

[FMolloy]

Victor,

The first quote was indeed mine, but the rest were Groundhog's.

As for AD, there is no need for organic assets in each battalion. Like Aidan says, this would be very expensive & the money could be better spent elsewhere. Since there is really only a need for battalion-level AD within the RRF, the solution would be to procure enough to equip that unit. So the DF could get 20 stinger units, deploy 10 overseas & retain 10 here for training. (I'm not saying the DF needs 20 stingers, I'm just using it to illustrate.)

[Aidan]

FMolloy, if you were looking for a cheap way of deploying a SHORAAD system for anti-helicopter use in the RRF, you could do a lot worse than an analogue of the Mistral/Unimog system the Belgian Army use. Basically a SWB Unimog with a Mistral system bolted to the flatbed (easily dismountable too) and a locker type box for reloads and gear at loadbed front. It'd be very easy to do something similar with the RBS-70.

[Docman]

The AD suggestion seems to have caused a bit of argument. What I am really proposing is a radical overhaul of the whole Air defence of Ireland on a low budget. The Defence forces seem to have forgotten about the whole concept of aircraft as Groundhog said. The current system is next to useless against anyone with any degree of sophistication. Ninety percent of Irish Airdefence assets (including all the new stuff) is very vulnerable to anti radiation missiles, even those designed in the 60's. To implement a proper overhaul with a properly integrated radar and fixed/mobile SAM sites would cost more than the Irish spend on defence. A much cheaper method would be to have small mobile systems which could be moved to where they are needed. Once it were online, it's inclusion as an organic asset within the battalion is essential if the Irish army expects to operate as part of the RRF in europe. The idea of sending troops into a potentially hostile area with no air defence assets is madness. I am not talking about super duper 100mile range SAM's but a small system, mobile, with gun backup either integrated (Cheaper) or seperate.

Manpads would also be essential such as Mistral or Stinger etc.

An example would be the M1047 on a piranha chassis or maybe the avenger. The M1047 can also mount a radar but relys mainly on a FLIR/ TV camera system. I am not an air defence buff but 2 of these in a battalion would make a hell of a difference. Don't know how good it is but something along the same lines.

[Docman]

But the essential argument that I am trying to make is that equipment is great, but training is essential. There is no point in having all these toys if we don't know the basics, and don't know how to use those toys.

[Aidan]

implement a proper overhaul with a properly integrated radar and fixed/mobile SAM sites would cost more than the Irish spend on defence

We were talking about for deployment. The DF have not 'forgotten' about air attacks, they just have never been provided with the resources to adequately deal with them. Ever, not even during or shortly after WWII.

In fact this ... a radical overhaul of the whole Air defence of Ireland on a low budget ... is largely a waste of time. AD is expensive, a half hearted attempt is a waste of money because it often gives little or no improvement at all.

a small system, mobile, with gun backup either integrated (Cheaper) or seperate

These systems are only theoretically useful in defending deployed troops, and even then only against helicopters or very low flying fixed wing assets. The footprint area which they provide defence for is minimal, and I mean /tiny/, and for all that they're bloody expensive. Effectively, all they are is a Manpad missile, sometimes with a gun (2km range tops?) on an APC chassis. That doesn't make them magic.

And anyone with ARMs will have stand off munitions or LGBs, thus completely negating the whole idea in the first place.