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Which Barracks Should Close Next? (Part 2)

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  • Originally posted by Egbeygia View Post
    My point in trying to make is that many of these facilities were not given away as people continue to claim. The Clancy Barracks example being the most obvious one. It was sold for €25.4million in 2003 by the DoD, Ballincollig the same year for €41million. Both sales were to private investors. So my point remains, should the state be competing with private investors on the open market with much deeper pockets to buy land from itself when it could be transferred for nothing for the common good? Yes of course the DF should look for something in return, land, investment etc, but it is the fault of DFHQ and/or DoD for not stipulating that in the contract for disposal.
    As you state yourself, DoD received money in return for land for Clancy and Ballincollig. Could they have got more for them? Probably but they did receive payment

    Rockbrae House is being gifted to Wicklow Co Co by DoD. It is surplus to DoD requirements? Yes
    Are we in a housing crisis? Yes
    Are we in a DF crisis? Yes

    Should the DF receive some kind of reward for this transfer? Yes

    Comment


    • So another hobby-warrior who knows best for the DF
      Personal abuse on this forum is not tolerated. You will not be warned again.
      "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

      "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

      Comment


      • When the Department disposed of assets to the private sector they did get income from it, the examples you correctly gave were Clancy and Murphy's Barracks. I don't criticise the amount they got as it is unrealistic to expect the Department to get the full developed market value since someone else is going to clear the land and build the apartments. However when the Department disposed of property to another department, council or agency there does not seem to have been any payment for those assets. Examples are the aforementioned Rockbrae House, also McGee Barracks, Cavan and Monaghan Barracks. Even the Irish Steel site was handed over to the council not only for nothing but only after the Department had paid for the clean up.

        Other departments cross charge each other when they use their services. I work for a government agency and we pay rent for our building to another government agency who owns the building. We also use the government payroll and IT shared services and are charged for them.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bravo20 View Post
          When the Department disposed of assets to the private sector they did get income from it, the examples you correctly gave were Clancy and Murphy's Barracks. I don't criticise the amount they got as it is unrealistic to expect the Department to get the full developed market value since someone else is going to clear the land and build the apartments. However when the Department disposed of property to another department, council or agency there does not seem to have been any payment for those assets. Examples are the aforementioned Rockbrae House, also McGee Barracks, Cavan and Monaghan Barracks. Even the Irish Steel site was handed over to the council not only for nothing but only after the Department had paid for the clean up.

          Other departments cross charge each other when they use their services. I work for a government agency and we pay rent for our building to another government agency who owns the building. We also use the government payroll and IT shared services and are charged for them.
          Well put on all points. The fallout is a shrinkage of the footprint and overall flexibility of the PDF/RDF and a loss of it's recruitment hinterland. In it's time Munster and particularly Cork have lost around 5 Forts, 4 Barracks, all previously used in Defence, Training, and Stores depots. In the meantime the facilities required to take up the decolonised personnel and equipment proceeds at a conditional pace while their families become refugees or semi-abandoned.
          When you look at the development of Portsmouth Base area, because of the two Aircraft Carriers and housing most of the Navy. They are making the Base self sufficient in Heat and Power with a 15mw gas powered 3-unit Plant, provided by EDINA an AngloIrish Company( based in Rockborough barracks Glounthane). They have dedicated berthage for all types of ships on 6k of quay walls and a range of drydocks. It all just means we need to make professional decisions and match demands with needs. By the way they have BAE doing some of the management of the facilities.

          Comment


          • Taoiseach has confirmed feasibility study on using CBB for housing

            https://www.thejournal.ie/cathal-bru...umXs4jprcNPoIQ

            Comment


            • Not a surprise after all the briefings about it, of course I have little doubt the DF will get nothing in exchange in terms of investment for another barracks gone.

              Comment


              • A corner of a Hangar in Bal if they are lucky.
                Wouldn't it be nice, just once, that the army had new accom to move into before they gave away their current accom?
                I'm sure, right now, some FQMS in Casement is picking a detail to tidy out a storeroom in some dusty corner, and has a stack of A4 sheet with "2 Cav" & "2 Art" and "2 Brigade_____" Printed in big letters on it, already pre-blu-tacked, waiting for a home.

                The manner in which this was made public is insulting to everyone who serves in the Brugha.
                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                Comment


                • No need to worry about 2 Arty, they moved out of Dublin years ago, the question is will 2 Brigade HQ move out now too?

                  Eamonn Ryan has some neck on him. Promising new barracks and new housing. The site value alone of CCB would likely pay for a green field site that would make for a first class installation. Given the encroachment of civilian industry around Baldonnell, moving those units there may be unfeasible too. Do we maybe need to look at selling the Bal and CBB and moving to a new green field base with room for both? Would a land swap for Weston Airport and a CPO of some lands around it be an option?
                  What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ODIN View Post
                    No need to worry about 2 Arty, they moved out of Dublin years ago, the question is will 2 Brigade HQ move out now too?

                    Eamonn Ryan has some neck on him. Promising new barracks and new housing. The site value alone of CCB would likely pay for a green field site that would make for a first class installation. Given the encroachment of civilian industry around Baldonnell, moving those units there may be unfeasible too. Do we maybe need to look at selling the Bal and CBB and moving to a new green field base with room for both? Would a land swap for Weston Airport and a CPO of some lands around it be an option?
                    Doubt Weston
                    https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1238755/


                    Comment


                    • Weston is anything but a greenfield site now with housing developments in Celbridge and Leixlip it's pretty much hemmed in and residents would kill the idea .
                      Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

                      Comment


                      • According to military.ie, CBB houses:

                        2 Bde HQ
                        7 Inf Bn (including AR)
                        2 BCS (including AR)
                        2 Bde CIS Gp (including AR)
                        2 Bde Tpt Coy (including AR)
                        2 Bde Ord Coy
                        2 Bde MP Coy (including AR)
                        DF Sch of Music
                        Mil Archives
                        Dublin Unit NSR

                        And of those it is more than likely their are among the best recruited, the best trained and high concentration of reservists in the country.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
                          Cathal Brugha Barracks - Points for Closure / Retention

                          Case 1 - Cathal Brugha Barracks.

                          Current Site size is 42.41 acres

                          Only 3 recorded protected structures (Church, Michael Collins House and Gates).

                          SALE PRICE

                          In 2004, Clancy Barracks (13.65 acres) was sold for €25.4 Million. (€29.25 Million in 2016 money)
                          in 2003, Murphy Barracks, Ballincollig, Cork (97 acres) was sold for €42 million (approx €50 million in 2016 money)

                          Recently in 2016 near CBB:
                          Portobello House (0.21 acres) was sold for €10 Million.
                          2 Grand Canal (Nationwide BS HQ) (1.7 acres) was sold for €35 Million.

                          If you sold Cathal Brugha Barracks at Clancy Barracks price per acre (€2.14 million pa) = €90.878 Million

                          If you sold CBB at an average of Clancy and 2 Grand Canal prices = €482 Million

                          Development costs associated with the Clancy Barracks site was €285 Million (Bought for €80 Million after company went into receivership)


                          Development Potential

                          Clancy Bks yielded 420 Apts on 13.65 acres

                          Cathal Brugha could potentially yield 1,305 Apts on 42.41 acres.

                          At an average build cost of €250,000 per apt, this results in an Apt Build cost of €326.23 Million.

                          However,

                          Development cost per acre at Clancy was €19.65 Million per acre.

                          Applied to CBB, development cost would be €833.56 Million.


                          Therefore, to make it attractive for sale, the guide price would be around the Clancy Price per acre, i.e €90.878 Million



                          What to do with this!

                          A 4,500 sqm Warehouse/Vehicle Storage unit including 11,000 sqm concrete yard and associated site works costs €6 Million euro.
                          To put this in perspective, the current vehicle storage in 1 MIC is 2,100 sqm. This Warehouse/yard would house all existing DF Armour and some softskin transport as well as have space for stores/parts.

                          A 450 room student accommodation hotel/apt including a 25m swimming pool costs €36 Million.

                          There are several areas in DFTC that could take both facilities and then some. One suitable site would yield 20,000 Sqm. The other would yield 37,000 sqm.

                          If the old red brick accomodation blocks/storage buildings were leveled this could happen in under one year. Also these buildings are unlisted.


                          And oh, ya, you would still have €45 Million left over
                          Bump

                          Comment


                          • (Partial) clarification from Minister on “feasibility study”

                            https://twitter.com/raco_df/status/1...386285571?s=21

                            Comment


                            • https://www.eastcoast.fm/news/wicklo...Gveup9PsKGwa0c

                              Rockbrae House transferred to Wicklow CC

                              Comment


                              • As an aside,
                                Listening to minister at PQs yesterday, he seemed to indicate there wasn't complete agreement about LOA2 amongs the party leaders in Government. Could we be losing Brugha to keep the GP sweet?
                                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                                Comment

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