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Which Barracks Should Close Next? (Part 2)

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  • Someone in DoD is actually using their brain for a change, then?
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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    • Originally posted by Truck Driver View Post

      Someone in DoD is actually using their brain for a change, then?
      Its an accounting issue. Dept of Taoiseach doing them out of a job they'd enjoy.
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Truck Driver View Post

        Who actually is the Labour Party leader right now??? Being somewhat facetious as I can Google the answer....
        The real question is who will the Labour party leader be after the next election, and will they be a sitting TD? Current count is 3 seats, and party leader isn't one of them.
        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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        • IMHO the DF should look at the whole topic of facilities from the other side, are they fit for purpose? All of the currently in-use facilities the Sate inherited from the British. The choice of locations by the British was more about control of a hostile local population. If we look at the modern deployments of the DF they are mechanised infantry, look at Lebanon, Chad et al. Should the DF not look at building proper modern bases outside of the major cities with proper training and living facilities? City locations such as Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway have high land prices and accommodation. Could this not be seen as an opportunity? Yes I know this would mean spending money on "defence".

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          • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post

            IMHO the DF should look at the whole topic of facilities from the other side, are they fit for purpose? All of the currently in-use facilities the Sate inherited from the British. The choice of locations by the British was more about control of a hostile local population. If we look at the modern deployments of the DF they are mechanised infantry, look at Lebanon, Chad et al. Should the DF not look at building proper modern bases outside of the major cities with proper training and living facilities? City locations such as Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway have high land prices and accommodation. Could this not be seen as an opportunity? Yes I know this would mean spending money on "defence".
            All this was discussed in depth in the CoDF which the Government has promised to follow the recommendations on. While we continue to invest considerable sums to upgrade accommodation in the facilities mentioned, we won't be leaving them any time soon.
            That said there is also quite a bit of DF land that is being under used. In my mind, since the M8 was built, the DF land between the M8 and old N8 at Kilworth could be built on for a wide range of DF uses. The plan to build a prison on lands to the south of the camp seems to have died a death. When Fermoy closed, many assumed the 1st Cav Sqn would move there. Unfortunately they all moved to Cork, and the sheds they and 1st FAR needed were built at great expense. However now that the Panhards have gone the same way as the 25 pdrs, is the centre of the city with 2 routes of access, normally hindered by congestion, be the best place for ALL the combat support units of 1 brigade?
            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post

              IMHO the DF should look at the whole topic of facilities from the other side, are they fit for purpose? All of the currently in-use facilities the Sate inherited from the British. The choice of locations by the British was more about control of a hostile local population. If we look at the modern deployments of the DF they are mechanised infantry, look at Lebanon, Chad et al. Should the DF not look at building proper modern bases outside of the major cities with proper training and living facilities? City locations such as Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway have high land prices and accommodation. Could this not be seen as an opportunity? Yes I know this would mean spending money on "defence".
              Think about cities is ATCA duties (flooding etc) are more common than national defence issues, so in some ways it makes sense, also means troops have access to more facilities outside the barracks walls if they don’t drive, imagine being SLI (single living in) in Cork compared to Kilworth (wasn’t there talk of that at one stage?).

              also looking at Dublin specifically look at the amounts of GoHs, duties (Sandyford is to move closer to the Airport I believe), etc in the greater City area. Add to that more protests of various types (possibly with external influence) which are turning nasty increasingly. Will that require ATCP ops in the future??

              I remember leaving CBB at silly o’clock to be in Middle Abbey Street for Easter GoH to stand around for a. Few hours even though we had (as far as I can remember) a Garda escort.

              also where do the troops live (SLI/SLO/MLI/MLO) which has to be factored in.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post

                IMHO the DF should look at the whole topic of facilities from the other side, are they fit for purpose? All of the currently in-use facilities the Sate inherited from the British. The choice of locations by the British was more about control of a hostile local population. If we look at the modern deployments of the DF they are mechanised infantry, look at Lebanon, Chad et al. Should the DF not look at building proper modern bases outside of the major cities with proper training and living facilities? City locations such as Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway have high land prices and accommodation. Could this not be seen as an opportunity? Yes I know this would mean spending money on "defence".
                There's only one "rural" manned base, Finner and its nestled in between two villages.

                Have a look across the water and Canada, exiling troops out to the middle of nowhere is a recipe for poor retention and mental health difficulties amongst young people who are stuck on base.

                You'd need decent transport links, otherwise this will accelerate the decline of the organisation.

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                • Originally posted by northie View Post

                  There's only one "rural" manned base, Finner and its nestled in between two villages.

                  Have a look across the water and Canada, exiling troops out to the middle of nowhere is a recipe for poor retention and mental health difficulties amongst young people who are stuck on base.

                  You'd need decent transport links, otherwise this will accelerate the decline of the organisation.
                  Troops are more mobile now, on a personal level, than they ever were. Most, if not all, have a car or a motorbike or some way of getting about, long before they even join. SLI is now more of a consideration because of the cost of rental housing, which is an incentive for the DoD to supply housing in or near barracks.

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                  • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post

                    Troops are more mobile now, on a personal level, than they ever were. Most, if not all, have a car or a motorbike or some way of getting about, long before they even join. SLI is now more of a consideration because of the cost of rental housing, which is an incentive for the DoD to supply housing in or near barracks.
                    I think you miss the dynamic here, they have car (or motorcycle) because they need one to commute to wherever they needed to be, because housing close to your workplace is an impossibility for most low wage earners. If they didn't need to commute they wouldn't have needed to buy the transport. I worked from the age of 18, commuted to all jobs by bicycle until I was 21, even then I only bought the motorcycle for leisure. I could have continued commuting by bicycle until I joined AGS a year later. Furthest job was 8km away. Even in my current job, public transport is a viable option. Only because I can afford to buy a house in a public transport area. There is no rental accom anywhere in a 3 mile radius of where I live.
                    Sticking a workplace miles from anywhere forces the employee to purchase a vehicle they may struggle to afford. Providing living accommodation within is something only an organisation like the DF can do and needs to do, due to the nature of military duties.
                    It is a particularly significant issue for the Naval service, who expect junior rates to live aboard ship for a 2 year rotation, which may include a period under refit, where their cabin may not be fit to live in. Then when the ship returns from sea, where do they go? Who wants to rent a room in a house you may only see 1 week out of 4?
                    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

                      I think you miss the dynamic here, they have car (or motorcycle) because they need one to commute to wherever they needed to be, because housing close to your workplace is an impossibility for most low wage earners. If they didn't need to commute they wouldn't have needed to buy the transport. I worked from the age of 18, commuted to all jobs by bicycle until I was 21, even then I only bought the motorcycle for leisure. I could have continued commuting by bicycle until I joined AGS a year later. Furthest job was 8km away. Even in my current job, public transport is a viable option. Only because I can afford to buy a house in a public transport area. There is no rental accom anywhere in a 3 mile radius of where I live.
                      Sticking a workplace miles from anywhere forces the employee to purchase a vehicle they may struggle to afford. Providing living accommodation within is something only an organisation like the DF can do and needs to do, due to the nature of military duties.
                      providing living accommodation is easy for SLI but for MLI is much more complex as your talking basically about building housing estates.

                      but 2 important points for MLI:
                      - what happens the couple after they leave the DF, they have become institutionalised (to varying degrees, even after 5 years)… they then need to find a home

                      - if we were to put say a battalion in a remote (large cheap plentiful land with lots of training opportunities)…. Where are the spouses going to get a job?


                      It is a particularly significant issue for the Naval service, who expect junior rates to live aboard ship for a 2 year rotation, which may include a period under refit, where their cabin may not be fit to live in. Then when the ship returns from sea, where do they go? Who wants to rent a room in a house you may only see 1 week out of 4?
                      has that not now been done away with…. Or at least work in progress?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DeV View Post

                        providing living accommodation is easy for SLI but for MLI is much more complex as your talking basically about building housing estates.

                        but 2 important points for MLI:
                        - what happens the couple after they leave the DF, they have become institutionalised (to varying degrees, even after 5 years)… they then need to find a home

                        - if we were to put say a battalion in a remote (large cheap plentiful land with lots of training opportunities)…. Where are the spouses going to get a job?


                        has that not now been done away with…. Or at least work in progress?
                        We could follow the same route as AGS. Once upon a time all gardai lived n the station, you had to apply to live out. This was phased out in the 60s, but the many garda houses that remained were kept in use as the force modified its public facing buildings. the "Garda Houses" became available to anyone who needed them. Usually they entailed a seni detached house attached to the Garda station, or in some cases, the location of the previous Garda station.
                        Maintenance was carried out by OPW, and rent was paid to them also, but applications for the house are made through AGS. They became a useful option for a member of AGS recently transferred to the area on promotion, with their family, and it gave them breathing space while they arranged a more permanent option.
                        In this regard the DF could, with the assistance of OPW, retain a number of recently built houses in a Barrack town and assign them to those who require them. They don't need to be within the barrack walls (as was the case in the past). I know when it comes to Cork, there are numerous recently built housing developments withing walking distance of barracks, with proximity to all local amenities.
                        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

                          We could follow the same route as AGS. Once upon a time all gardai lived n the station, you had to apply to live out. This was phased out in the 60s, but the many garda houses that remained were kept in use as the force modified its public facing buildings. the "Garda Houses" became available to anyone who needed them. Usually they entailed a seni detached house attached to the Garda station, or in some cases, the location of the previous Garda station.
                          Maintenance was carried out by OPW, and rent was paid to them also, but applications for the house are made through AGS. They became a useful option for a member of AGS recently transferred to the area on promotion, with their family, and it gave them breathing space while they arranged a more permanent option.
                          In this regard the DF could, with the assistance of OPW, retain a number of recently built houses in a Barrack town and assign them to those who require them. They don't need to be within the barrack walls (as was the case in the past). I know when it comes to Cork, there are numerous recently built housing developments withing walking distance of barracks, with proximity to all local amenities.
                          Except we aren’t talking about say 10-15 Gardai in a big station (many only have less than 5)

                          we are talking several hundred soldiers…. In a housing crisis

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by DeV View Post

                            Except we aren’t talking about say 10-15 Gardai in a big station (many only have less than 5)

                            we are talking several hundred soldiers…. In a housing crisis
                            My point stands.
                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

                              I think you miss the dynamic here, they have car (or motorcycle) because they need one to commute to wherever they needed to be, because housing close to your workplace is an impossibility for most low wage earners. If they didn't need to commute they wouldn't have needed to buy the transport. I worked from the age of 18, commuted to all jobs by bicycle until I was 21, even then I only bought the motorcycle for leisure. I could have continued commuting by bicycle until I joined AGS a year later. Furthest job was 8km away. Even in my current job, public transport is a viable option. Only because I can afford to buy a house in a public transport area. There is no rental accom anywhere in a 3 mile radius of where I live.
                              Sticking a workplace miles from anywhere forces the employee to purchase a vehicle they may struggle to afford. Providing living accommodation within is something only an organisation like the DF can do and needs to do, due to the nature of military duties.
                              It is a particularly significant issue for the Naval service, who expect junior rates to live aboard ship for a 2 year rotation, which may include a period under refit, where their cabin may not be fit to live in. Then when the ship returns from sea, where do they go? Who wants to rent a room in a house you may only see 1 week out of 4?
                              True in many ways but urbanisation has meant that formerly rural locations are now as good as being in the city, Baldonnel being a case in point. The Naval Base was a peculiar case because there were only two ways off the island, by the boat or by a very distant road and few people had bikes or cars. I thoroughly endorse Base housing as long as it's not abused as a holding point for free labour and the State keeps it in good condition. As Aptces, we hated being kept in, as it invariably meant that you were caught for a dirty detail because someone hadn't turned up or you were being unofficially used a s Guard fodder without compensation, so we got out at every opportunity. As for other trades, there is a growing call for the Gardai and HSE to provide housing for junior members, such as junior nurses and doctors, like they used to do. The DoD and DF have to have a grown-up conversation about housing, particularly for single persons.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DeV View Post

                                providing living accommodation is easy for SLI but for MLI is much more complex as your talking basically about building housing estates.

                                but 2 important points for MLI:
                                - what happens the couple after they leave the DF, they have become institutionalised (to varying degrees, even after 5 years)… they then need to find a home

                                - if we were to put say a battalion in a remote (large cheap plentiful land with lots of training opportunities)…. Where are the spouses going to get a job?


                                has that not now been done away with…. Or at least work in progress?
                                Every MLI family that I encountered in the DF also had private accomodation outside and there were very few that truly "lived in". They usually had a place or places outside for their kids to go to school and college. We had one genuine fulltime tenant in Baldonnel but we knew he had a place outside and there was a small estate of bungalows that were scarcely used.

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