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Which Barracks Should Close Next? (Part 2)

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  • #16
    In an ideal situation, the government would look at buying two or three large areas of land that are well serviced by motorways, and have varied terrain, and build bases. One per brigade, keep the DFTC and move the lot to central locations. IIRC, there's a piece of EU legislation dealing with having military outposts in urban centers, so in the medium term, we may be forced towards this anyway.

    With the way that property prices are going, Bricins and the Brugha would be valuable locations for property development and Baldonnel would be in high demand as a second commercial airport for Dublin. Also the savings on logistics etc would be massive over a few years, and consolidating units to larger new locations would mean better and more modern facilities that are fit for purpose, it must cost the DF a fortune maintaining and upgrading buildings that are mostly from the 1800's.
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

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    • #17
      It would but that would probably require a cash injection approaching €500 million

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      • #18
        Selling CBB and Baldonnel would probably meet most of that cost.
        What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

        Comment


        • #19
          McKee - only really a HQ location but no doubt there is largely unused accommodation there that is useful for GoHs, major events/ops, etc.
          CBB - too big to close would require an unaffordable green field site, duties, GoHs, etc
          Bricins - close it and move the facilities that are actually required to DFTC
          Casement - only AC base, standalone site is good for security. Proximity to Weston could stop Civvy use
          Aiken - close to the border and could be a bad idea to close it in the short to medium term (especially due to BREXIT)
          Gormanston - relatively close to the border, good low level training area, room for expansion, self sufficient with ranges, AC & AD range area
          Custume - expensive green field replacement required
          Dun Ui Mhaoiliosa - ATCA ops?
          Finner - close to the border, training areas, ranges
          Stephens - ATCP/ATCA ops?
          Curragh - expensive green field replacement required, close to Dublin, close to Glen, training areas, ranges
          Collins - 2nd city, ATCP/ATCA ops
          Haulbowline - only NS base, potential room for expansion?
          Sarsfield - 3rd city, Shannon, ATCP/ATCA ops

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by ODIN View Post
            Selling CBB and Baldonnel would probably meet most of that cost.
            Yes but you have to have the money to buy and build the new site first (would take at least 5 years IMHO)

            Also how much of any site will have to go for social housing

            Comment


            • #21
              Cathal Brugha Barracks - Points for Closure / Retention

              Case 1 - Cathal Brugha Barracks.

              Current Site size is 42.41 acres

              Only 3 recorded protected structures (Church, Michael Collins House and Gates).

              SALE PRICE

              In 2004, Clancy Barracks (13.65 acres) was sold for €25.4 Million. (€29.25 Million in 2016 money)
              in 2003, Murphy Barracks, Ballincollig, Cork (97 acres) was sold for €42 million (approx €50 million in 2016 money)

              Recently in 2016 near CBB:
              Portobello House (0.21 acres) was sold for €10 Million.
              2 Grand Canal (Nationwide BS HQ) (1.7 acres) was sold for €35 Million.

              If you sold Cathal Brugha Barracks at Clancy Barracks price per acre (€2.14 million pa) = €90.878 Million

              If you sold CBB at an average of Clancy and 2 Grand Canal prices = €482 Million

              Development costs associated with the Clancy Barracks site was €285 Million (Bought for €80 Million after company went into receivership)


              Development Potential

              Clancy Bks yielded 420 Apts on 13.65 acres

              Cathal Brugha could potentially yield 1,305 Apts on 42.41 acres.

              At an average build cost of €250,000 per apt, this results in an Apt Build cost of €326.23 Million.

              However,

              Development cost per acre at Clancy was €19.65 Million per acre.

              Applied to CBB, development cost would be €833.56 Million.


              Therefore, to make it attractive for sale, the guide price would be around the Clancy Price per acre, i.e €90.878 Million



              What to do with this!

              A 4,500 sqm Warehouse/Vehicle Storage unit including 11,000 sqm concrete yard and associated site works costs €6 Million euro.
              To put this in perspective, the current vehicle storage in 1 MIC is 2,100 sqm. This Warehouse/yard would house all existing DF Armour and some softskin transport as well as have space for stores/parts.

              A 450 room student accommodation hotel/apt including a 25m swimming pool costs €36 Million.

              There are several areas in DFTC that could take both facilities and then some. One suitable site would yield 20,000 Sqm. The other would yield 37,000 sqm.

              If the old red brick accomodation blocks/storage buildings were leveled this could happen in under one year. Also these buildings are unlisted.


              And oh, ya, you would still have €45 Million left over
              Last edited by TangoSierra; 5 December 2016, 14:09.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by DeV View Post
                McKee - only really a HQ location but no doubt there is largely unused accommodation there that is useful for GoHs, major events/ops, etc. Viable
                CBB - too big to close would require an unaffordable green field site, duties, GoHs, etc - Not factual
                Bricins - close it and move the facilities that are actually required to DFTC - Viable
                Casement - only AC base, standalone site is good for security. Proximity to Weston could stop Civvy use Viable
                Aiken - close to the border and could be a bad idea to close it in the short to medium term (especially due to BREXIT) Viable
                Gormanston - relatively close to the border, good low level training area, room for expansion, self sufficient with ranges, AC & AD range area Viable
                Custume - expensive green field replacement required Not factual - Difficulty is political not physical
                Dun Ui Mhaoiliosa - ATCA ops? (Throw down between Limerick and Galway)
                Finner - close to the border, training areas, ranges Viable
                Stephens - ATCP/ATCA ops? Not factual - Difficulty is political not physical
                Curragh - expensive green field replacement required, close to Dublin, close to Glen, training areas, ranges Viable
                Collins - 2nd city, ATCP/ATCA ops Not factual - Difficulty is political not physical
                Haulbowline - only NS base, potential room for expansion? Viable
                Sarsfield - 3rd city, Shannon, ATCP/ATCA ops (Throw down between Limerick and Galway)
                ...

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
                  Case 1 - Cathal Brugha Barracks.

                  Current Site size is 42.41 acres

                  Only 3 recorded protected structures (Church, Michael Collins House and Gates).

                  SALE PRICE

                  In 2004, Clancy Barracks (13.65 acres) was sold for €25.4 Million. (€29.25 Million in 2016 money)
                  in 2003, Murphy Barracks, Ballincollig, Cork (97 acres) was sold for €42 million (approx €50 million in 2016 money)

                  Recently in 2016 near CBB:
                  Portobello House (0.21 acres) was sold for €10 Million.
                  2 Grand Canal (Nationwide BS HQ) (1.7 acres) was sold for €35 Million.

                  If you sold Cathal Brugha Barracks at Clancy Barracks price per acre (€2.14 million pa) = €90.878 Million

                  If you sold CBB at an average of Clancy and 2 Grand Canal prices = €482 Million

                  Development costs associated with the Clancy Barracks site was €285 Million (Bought for €80 Million after company went into receivership)


                  Development Potential

                  Clancy Bks yielded 420 Apts on 13.65 acres

                  Cathal Brugha could potentially yield 1,305 Apts on 42.41 acres.

                  At an average build cost of €250,000 per apt, this results in an Apt Build cost of €326.23 Million.

                  However,

                  Development cost per acre at Clancy was €19.65 Million per acre.

                  Applied to CBB, development cost would be €833.56 Million.


                  Therefore, to make it attractive for sale, the guide price would be around the Clancy Price per acre, i.e €90.878 Million



                  What to do with this!

                  A 4,500 sqm Warehouse/Vehicle Storage unit including 11,000 sqm concrete yard and associated site works costs €6 Million euro.
                  To put this in perspective, the current vehicle storage in 1 MIC is 2,100 sqm. This Warehouse/yard would house all existing DF Armour and some softskin transport as well as have space for stores/parts.

                  A 450 room student accommodation hotel/apt including a 25m swimming pool costs €36 Million.

                  There are several areas in DFTC that could take both facilities and then some. One suitable site would yield 20,000 Sqm. The other would yield 37,000 sqm.

                  If the old red brick accomodation blocks/storage buildings were leveled this could happen in under one year. Also these buildings are unlisted.


                  And oh, ya, you would still have €45 Million left over
                  Yes €45 million left over to build/extend/refurbish accommodation, dining halls, stores, workshops, offices, lecture rooms, classrooms, archives, gyms, squares, etc etc etc for the over 1000 PDF personnel based in CBB.

                  The Curragh is big but you will be eating into the exercise lands. To put it in proportion there are currently around 1400 based in the DFTC and 1000 in Custume.

                  Also that money will be looked for the reequipment programmes.

                  Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
                  ...
                  What do you mean by viable? Retain ?

                  To a degree there are physical constraints. Probably the most strategically important site in the State is Shannon Airport.

                  Where there is limited time or mobility (be it transport, infrastructure or weather), time could be of the essence. There is economic and political realities yes but there is also military realities.
                  Last edited by DeV; 5 December 2016, 16:18.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    With all the talk of property values, sales etc, you are all missing the Loxodonta africana in the covered space.

                    Kildare.
                    A perfectly good barracks a short distance from the Curragh, that closed in 1998, and remains unoccupied and unused, only sold in February for €8.2m for development.
                    Ballincollig was also a bargain to the developers, though its development didn't take as long.
                    Clancy rotted away for many a year until eventually developed.
                    The Old AD HQ in Cobh is also an empty large site, with possibly the best view of Cork Harbour. All buildings on it were demolished.

                    I'd be reluctant to leave any facility, without a contract of sale signed. Otherwise the DoD have to foot the considerable bill for security. By the time Kildare was sold, it'd buildings were in ruins, as a result of 18 years of anti-social behaviour.
                    The proximity to some of the suggestions above to the less attractive parts of their respective locations to me would see them with a similar future.
                    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                    German 2: Private? I am a general!
                    German 1: That is the bad news.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      You miss the point Dev. The money being spent now on existing infrastructure would be re assigned to develop the Curragh. The €45 million left could form a fund for equipment (or 1/2 of a ship). There are many many examples of modern military barracks facilitating over 4000 troops including vehicles and equipment in less space than the area surrounded by trees of the Curragh Camp.

                      There will be no "eating into exercise lands". Potential sites for vehicle storage of the entire DF inventory, administration buildings for a Bde+ and accommodation for over 2000 troops can all occur within the 1/2 the existing foot print of the West Curragh camp alone.

                      Time is an important factor. But you seem to think or suggest that the DF could deploy a Bn within 30min. it cant.

                      Show specific examples backed by evidence/facts in your posts. Otherwise your points are nothing more than the equivalent of "But we've always done it like this" or "You cant do that! - Why? - " You just cant ok!"

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
                        Show specific examples backed by evidence/facts in your posts. Otherwise your points are nothing more than the equivalent of "But we've always done it like this" or "You cant do that! - Why? - " You just cant ok!"
                        LOL......Dev in one sentence!!!!!
                        Fate whispers to the warrior, "There is a storm coming"

                        And the warrior whispers back "I am the storm".

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
                          You miss the point Dev. The money being spent now on existing infrastructure would be re assigned to develop the Curragh.
                          You mean the total budget of € 10.062 m (2015 estimates) for all the DF for all capital built infrastructure ?

                          The €45 million left could form a fund for equipment (or 1/2 of a ship). There are many many examples of modern military barracks facilitating over 4000 troops including vehicles and equipment in less space than the area surrounded by trees of the Curragh Camp.

                          There will be no "eating into exercise lands". Potential sites for vehicle storage of the entire DF inventory, administration buildings for a Bde+ and accommodation for over 2000 troops can all occur within the 1/2 the existing foot print of the West Curragh camp alone.
                          and you will only have that money after the sale (CIF were in the news today giving out that the banks aren't lending to developers (allowing them to build)). So where do we get the money to build the necessary new facilities in the Curragh to increase the numbers based there by 75%? Because they need to be put in place before the troops can move (and possibly before it is offered for sale).

                          I'm not saying it is impossible but within the current financial constraints it's unlikely to be viable. There are a good few unused buildings that could be renovated/knocked in the DFTC currently but after that you are either taking over squares, car parking, immediately at the sides of the roads and then most likely the southern part of the camp.

                          Time is an important factor. But you seem to think or suggest that the DF could deploy a Bn within 30min. it cant.
                          not suggesting that
                          Last edited by DeV; 5 December 2016, 21:11.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Again with the No, No No, cant do this becasue.. you just cant....we've always done it this way....

                            A proportion of the infrastructure budget could be directed at the DFTC. It would be much better than some of the money pit projects currently in the works. Money for buying of land does not only come form Irish Banks or Irish Developers. 2 Grand Canal and Clancy were bought by international investors. A phased sale of each site would release money to build the required facilities

                            The majority of buildings in the DFTC need to be demolished. They are expensive money pits that add a massive drain on infrastructure funds. Modern, functional, multi-use and energy efficient buildings and facilities can accomodate more people in a more collaborative way in a reduced footprint. And whats wrong with using "squares" to build on? The existing West Camp has more than enough usable space without the Southern parts even being considered. In fact the majority of the southern slope of the DFTC could be returned to grass land, while still in creasing the numbers of personnel based there.

                            It costs €416 Million to pay the wages of 9,500 personnel. This money has been budgeted for in 2015. The DF is currently below 9,000.

                            https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/...sonnel+Data%22

                            €43,789 average per person. (Before anyone gets enraged I know this does not apply to all! - its an average for rough approximation)

                            €43,789 x 500 = €21.9 Million will be handed back.

                            Half of this or €12 Million will go to service the increases in the DF Pension Vote. That leaves €10 Million. More than enough to get started on facilities in the DFTC.

                            If the NZ Army can consolidate the vast majority of their forces into an area the same size as the Curragh Camp at Linton Camp, the DF can too.

                            http://army.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/pub...y-location.pdf
                            Last edited by TangoSierra; 8 December 2016, 11:12.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              The shortfall in the wages bill is currently being used for capital procurement, namely the ships etc.

                              Of course anything is possible, and yes the current locations of barracks do not really meet the current needs. The only problem is that to change it, it would require a major re-think on how the DF is structured, which is something nobody really wants to do and would probably meet huge resistance from many corners.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Accepted. It proves the case that it can be done. If the DF can buy €90 Million ships, it can buy €90 Million facility consolidation.

                                In response to "Nobody really wants to do it" - Where are all the Security and Defence Commentators gone? The White Paper said it needs a detailed study. Is no one on this forum willing to even try and help in that regard?

                                If a detailed study and proposal can be put forward that is backed by fact and figures, it will make it harder for the political resistance to justify their self-centered vote protectionism.

                                "Plans are nothing, Planning is everything"
                                Last edited by TangoSierra; 8 December 2016, 14:23.

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