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  • #16
    Originally posted by trellheim View Post
    However it IS the comparative metric that Eurostat compare us on so by definition that is what everyone uses . The GNI copout is just that. We can tax em if we wanted to
    It is but we are a strange case.

    We could tax them if we wanted to but we'd it once and they'd have all the revenues flowing through another tax haven the following year.

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    • #17
      oh for sure but the other eu nations are measured on this, so we should be too. In any event it doesnt change the scale too much either way i.e we are still chasing the bottom of the table no matter which one you use
      "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

      "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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      • #18
        Originally posted by DeV View Post
        So in essence we need to use GNI across the board
        We are NOT different to any other country, and all use GDP as baseline. The poor little me syndrome is daft when you think of Apples 13Bn sitting in the Bank. As a last resort we could do like the USA and others did during world conflicts by putting a few cents on all transactions as a Defence tax.

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        • #19
          A start would be making the DOD stop sending chunks of the budget back almost every year unspent.....the DF are not a temporary piggybank for other departments.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Rocinante View Post
            A start would be making the DOD stop sending chunks of the budget back almost every year unspent.....the DF are not a temporary piggybank for other departments.
            Add to that, stop making the Defence Forces pay for other peoples responsibilities without full up front supplementary budgets or re-imbursement per annum.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Rocinante View Post
              A start would be making the DOD stop sending chunks of the budget back almost every year unspent.....the DF are not a temporary piggybank for other departments.
              Any other department head who sends back money to finance at the end of the year would be regarded as incompetent.
              Is the DoD a dumping ground for the ones going no where
              Last edited by sofa; 1 March 2021, 22:56.

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              • #22
                Percentage of government revenue (mainly taxation) to direct defence spend (OpEx and CapEx) is another matrix of comparison of defence spend between countries gaining favour as an alternative to a GDP based formula. One that has been more commonly used in the past when comparing Health, Education and Welfare spending.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Anzac View Post
                  Percentage of government revenue (mainly taxation) to direct defence spend (OpEx and CapEx) is another matrix of comparison of defence spend between countries gaining favour as an alternative to a GDP based formula. One that has been more commonly used in the past when comparing Health, Education and Welfare spending.
                  They have always muddied the defence budget accounts by including pension costs within the Departments account. There is an annual sunset on other expenditure with annual amounts returned to Revenue. It has happened during budget year that defence will be told to cut expenditure on non-pay items by 10%. It is not clear how exigencies like ACP/Covid are paid for but I suspect it is attritional.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                    They have always muddied the defence budget accounts by including pension costs within the Departments account. There is an annual sunset on other expenditure with annual amounts returned to Revenue. It has happened during budget year that defence will be told to cut expenditure on non-pay items by 10%. It is not clear how exigencies like ACP/Covid are paid for but I suspect it is attritional.
                    Just as a matter to be explained--The European defence Fund exists. For instance Research is funded by Euro 500m from 2020 onwards, While Development and Acquisition is also funded by Euro 1 Billion from 2020 onwards. The agreed EDF, voted by members for 2021 -2027 is Euro 13 Billion. We are in the EU and PESCO and paying our portion towards the EDF in general payments to EU . We need to avail of the avenues open to us for mutual programmes of equipping and training.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                      Just as a matter to be explained--The European defence Fund exists. For instance Research is funded by Euro 500m from 2020 onwards, While Development and Acquisition is also funded by Euro 1 Billion from 2020 onwards. The agreed EDF, voted by members for 2021 -2027 is Euro 13 Billion. We are in the EU and PESCO and paying our portion towards the EDF in general payments to EU . We need to avail of the avenues open to us for mutual programmes of equipping and training.
                      Ah, but to some in Irish Politics, mere mention of the word Defence in a European context means immediate abandonment of neutrality, followed by wholesale recruitment of all sons of Ireland (not daughters, mind), to the great European Super Army, to go and fight America's wars. (while at the same time feeling pride that our own poorly paid poorly equipped sons of Eire wearing the blue beret protecting victims of War overseas do so only with the express permission of the permanent members of the UNSC, such as China, Russia, the USA etc)
                      German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                      German 2: Private? I am a general!
                      German 1: That is the bad news.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                        Ah, but to some in Irish Politics, mere mention of the word Defence in a European context means immediate abandonment of neutrality, followed by wholesale recruitment of all sons of Ireland (not daughters, mind), to the great European Super Army, to go and fight America's wars. (while at the same time feeling pride that our own poorly paid poorly equipped sons of Eire wearing the blue beret protecting victims of War overseas do so only with the express permission of the permanent members of the UNSC, such as China, Russia, the USA etc)
                        We're all out of step except Patrick! War when continental is indiscriminate and hits those who need protection most. Look at the upheaval in all of North Africa, on our EU Borders and the Middle East. Whose job is it to contain the conflict and it's consequences to EU. We're in and NOT just on Payday for EU Funding.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
                          I can't believe I'm sayin this but in the Government's defence, Ireland's GDP figure is highly screwed by multinationals and is unfortunately not a like for like comparison.

                          Our raw GDP figures don't represent our actual capacity to pay for all services including defence. If Ireland was matching the average GDP % spend of other EU states on defence; we would actually be spending a lot more of our 'real' national output on defence. In fact, we'd probably be one of the big spenders in percentage terms.

                          The CSO and CBI have released numerous papers over the last few years. GNI* is a much better representation of where our economy is at.

                          https://www.centralbank.ie/news/arti...4-january-2021

                          The graph presented on the face of it is comparing a basket apples but in reality is comparing a bunch of apples and one orange.

                          Ireland's actual figure changes from 0.21% to 0.27% which is of course, not much better from a low baseline.

                          If Ireland was paying the EU average of 1.2% of GDP this would in reality be 1.6% for us which put us just short of France.
                          Within the EU GDP is less and less used. GNI is more often used as in calculating our contribution to the EU budget. If is good enough for that then it is good enough for defence spending.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                            Within the EU GDP is less and less used. GNI is more often used as in calculating our contribution to the EU budget. If is good enough for that then it is good enough for defence spending.
                            To be honest, the difference is negligible.
                            German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                            German 2: Private? I am a general!
                            German 1: That is the bad news.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                              Within the EU GDP is less and less used. GNI is more often used as in calculating our contribution to the EU budget. If is good enough for that then it is good enough for defence spending.
                              The problem with our GNI is that we appear to be rich whereby our GNI is 70k USD pp, as against 61k USD for Iceland, and 48k USD for the UK. It is obvious we have been used to others doing it for us like in the old days of SAR.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Ireland's sons have a very long and proud history of fighting in European Armies; Spanish, French, Austrian, Swedish, Russian, German (well the states that make up Germany) and of course the British Armed forces. So the idea that Irish troops would never be a part of a "European Force" does not sit well with history. Some went for the money, some were forced but may went and fought in foreign armies as they believed it was the best way to support our independence. True, it was because back then we had a common enemy, the English.

                                Today the enemy(s) may be different but the enemies of the EU in general are also our enemies. They do not care that we proclaim to be neutral, we are part of a community of nations and are seen as such by others. We need to get over ourselves. And an EU military is not a reserve force for the US, some might be but there are major elements who do not take oders from the US, France for example. So let's grow up a bit.

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