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  • #16
    Originally posted by Chuck View Post
    You cannot expect a defined time when the longest and most important part of the course is entirely dependent on weather which is completely outside of anyone's control. Somewhere between 30-40% of planned sorties are cancelled by weather. This is before you consider aircraft servicability and instructor availability. The army and naval service don't have to suffer to the same extent, especially in relation to the weather.

    A service bulletin for a specific maintenance aspect can ground a fleet. That can't be planned for.

    There are so many variables that cannot be predicted, hence why there is no definitive plan.

    A class of 10 will take significantly longer than 5 simply because there are only so many slots per day. Its just simple maths before you consider all the other variables.
    I would be interested to see how the RAF manage to gauge how long it will take to do basic flight training to within a few weeks? I'd assume a greater number of instructors and aircraft coupled with a steadier pipeline of students allows for them to take advantage of the weather when it's good.

    I know in the US military, flight training takes places in the sunnier more arid areas of the US where they are less likely to have issues with the weather and other restrictions on operation.

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    • #17
      Strangely enough the RAF seem to be able to put a time scale on their flight training. I believe the UK has similar weather to ourselves. Of course they commission their officers after initial officer training and before flight training.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Bravo20 View Post
        Strangely enough the RAF seem to be able to put a time scale on their flight training. I believe the UK has similar weather to ourselves. Of course they commission their officers after initial officer training and before flight training.
        You are comparing two completely different animals and with massively different amounts of resources.

        Not sure what your point is.

        I know first hand that there is and has been significant "slippage" to course durations in the "mighty" RAF as well. The brochures only tell one side of the story.

        It's really not a hard concept to understand. When you have a different number of cadets being recruited annually, say 6 one year and 12 the following year, the larger class is going to take longer so how can you expect a definitive timeline when all the other variables have to be taken into account also.
        Last edited by Chuck; 21 August 2018, 17:07.

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        • #19
          The RAF have much more aircraft, techs and instructors.... yes they also have more students but there is spare capability in there
          Last edited by DeV; 21 August 2018, 17:31.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by DeV View Post
            The RAF have much more aircraft, techs and instructors
            And vastly fewer students...

            Surely this, as well as the endless whining about the weather and not having the tools and people to do the flying bit of Officer Cadet training just rams home the truth that you'd be far better off doing the flying bit at either a private outfit in the US or southern Europe, or just loading the candidates on other nations flying training programs...

            (Of course, Irish requirements are special, no other operator has to fly in rain, or above the sea, or in aircraft with paint on them, or whatever utter bollocks excuse the self-licking lollipop can come up with for operating almost twice as many training aircraft as it does operational aircraft...

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            • #21
              Originally posted by ropebag View Post
              And vastly fewer students...

              Surely this, as well as the endless whining about the weather and not having the tools and people to do the flying bit of Officer Cadet training just rams home the truth that you'd be far better off doing the flying bit at either a private outfit in the US or southern Europe, or just loading the candidates on other nations flying training programs...

              (Of course, Irish requirements are special, no other operator has to fly in rain, or above the sea, or in aircraft with paint on them, or whatever utter bollocks excuse the self-licking lollipop can come up with for operating almost twice as many training aircraft as it does operational aircraft...
              Your post is quite ironic in a way. Although you are clearly trying to portray the status quo as a typical "Irish solution to an Irish problem". Your only recommendation is to suggest an even more Irish solution to an Irish problem and that is to outsource with absolutely no facts or figures to back it up. Just outsource. Wonderful problem solving.

              If you can bear with me for a second and leave behind your sour bitter scorn for all things AC related. Can you explain how identifying the Irish climate as a significant determinimg factor in the length of cadet flying training is as you so eloquently put it "utter bollox"? I realise you were specifically referring to the number or training aircraft but I'll assume the attitude applies to you entire post.

              Certain disciplines require specific type of weather. You can't do basic circuits if the wind is outside of limits. You can't do VFR navigation if the cloud base is too low or visibility is too poor. You can't do IFR if the cloud is on the deck or the weather at your alternate is below limits.

              You can't even tow the aircraft outside the hanger if the wind is forecast to be above what the manufacturer says is safe.

              These are all manufacturer limitations, SOPs and regulations, all of which are designed to keep the crew and the aircraft intact.

              If you have some cost benefit analysis from any other nation I'd love to read it. Or is this just a case of "sure it must be cheaper because I said so"
              Last edited by Chuck; 21 August 2018, 20:11.

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              • #22
                Also stuff like you could have 4 aircraft available for 6 in a senior class and 10 in a junior class, the senior class only having 1 instr available and the junior class having 2

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                • #23
                  Listen you can blame the lack of aircraft, training instructors and operational needs for not being able to keep to a schedule, I'll buy that. But when you start pulling the weather card you are just trying to blow smoke up my arse.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Chuck View Post
                    You are correct. Your suggestion makes total sense. However. If you are a bean counter it saves money to pay an individual as a cadet at €18k per year rather than as an officer at €30k+ a year. That is the only reason as far as I can see.

                    I have never heard of anyone failing a type conversion course after completing a wings course.
                    If the bean counters are into saving money, why do they commission officers and THEN send them to University on higher wages? Could argue flight school is University equivalent

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                    • #25
                      The point made above though ; would you not stick them on an intensive 6 months learn-to-fly IFR-in-6-months in the USA - say Arizona ?
                      "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                      "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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                      • #26
                        http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...urses/6121.cfm
                        Min 26 weeks

                        Every Air Force can tell you how long their syllabi are and all being ok how long it is likely to take

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                        • #27
                          Why are they recruiting cadet classes if they don't have the capacity to train them??

                          Maybe it ticks the box for some political type..

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Bravo20 View Post
                            Listen you can blame the lack of aircraft, training instructors and operational needs for not being able to keep to a schedule, I'll buy that. But when you start pulling the weather card you are just trying to blow smoke up my arse.
                            If you are unwilling to accept that weather, which is completely outside of the control of everyone, has a singificant part to play in contributing to delays well then I don't know what else to tell you. As I said, it is not a hard concept to grasp.

                            A single week of sustained bad weather, which is not thar uncommon in Ireland, particularly during the period from October to March could results in the loss of 80 slots in a single week assuming 4 aircraft flying 4 slots per day which is again, entirely reasonable.

                            Why is this such a hard concept for you to believe? I'm not blowing smoke up your arse. In general the weather is probably the single biggest influencing factor in aviation worldwide and particularly so when you are dealing with ab-initio students with pretty much zero experience.



                            Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
                            If the bean counters are into saving money, why do they commission officers and THEN send them to University on higher wages? Could argue flight school is University equivalent
                            I have no idea, USAC is something the DF can do without in my opinion. Aside from sending non grads to college on handsome-ish wages, the only return the army gets is a guaranteed service commitment which I think is two/three years for every one spend in 3rd level. I believe officers undertaking USAC courses do not get paid MSA either which means the difference in wages is probably 10-15k at the very most, even towards the end of the course. I guess if you are a bean counter, that 10-15k per year could represent a good ROI because you now have that individual tied down for a defined period which should, 'in theory' allow for better planning. In comparison, AC officers are obliged to give 12 years in return upon commissioning which is significantly longer than many other western air forces/arms so the bean counters get their chunk of flesh there which is understandable.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
                              Why are they recruiting cadet classes if they don't have the capacity to train them??

                              Maybe it ticks the box for some political type..
                              You would have to ask the political heads that one. There is an optimum number of personnel to train at any one time, both AC, NS and Army. But given the retention crisis and the subsequent "recruit at all costs" attitude displayed, its clear it is a political move. Look at the recent size of cadet classes for example. A textbook knee jerk reaction.

                              So now you have, across the spectrum, courses being shortened, corners being cut just to massage numbers. There are some real gems in the pipeline, really and truly and once again, as they always do, the chickens will come home to roost.

                              It also makes answering PQs very easy. Any question on retention in the PDF is now met with how many are being recruited to meet the deficit.

                              This whole saga doesnt just apply to officers either. I'm sure some of those serving members here saw the AAR report concerning a recent recruit class which was a real eye opener and a reflection of the current attitude of getting bodies in the door at any cost.

                              Anyway, I have gone vastly off topic but it is all worthy of discussion, but perhaps not in this thread.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by trellheim View Post
                                The point made above though ; would you not stick them on an intensive 6 months learn-to-fly IFR-in-6-months in the USA - say Arizona ?
                                Of could of course but it to do so involves a multitude to changes to syllabi, conditions, service agreements between organizations and of course additional money to finance it, whatever the cost may be.

                                I've seen first hand the bureaucracy in trying to acquire a printer. That can be a struggle in itself.

                                Now apply that to sending 6-10 students to the USA for 6 months.

                                Nothing is easy or straightforward. Such a deal would likely vastly eat into the J7 external education budget which screws it for everyone else.

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