Cadet Payscale

[Chuck]

Undertakings changed after my time. I was on 4 years per year.

Officers having 3rd level qualifications is pretty much standard throughout developed countries. It is essential for professionalisation of the organisation. To say no one benefits other than the student is just wrong. Anyway I am not getting into that discussion and turning it into an us & them conversation

There is no direct correlation between attaining a piece of paper and the professionalism of the DF. I have encountered people (of all ranks) who have level 8 & 9 qualifications who I genuinely wonder how they manage to dress themselves in the morning. Continued professional development is all well and good, but that's the reason we have leadership which describe the chronic HR issues the DF are experiencing as "pinch points". Buzzwords and hot air.

Certainly the organisation may benefit, mainly due to the fact that they now have tied down an officer for a specific period which aids planning but let's not try and kid anyone as to the reality.

Sending an officer to NUIG to undergo a mickey mouse level 8 arts degree for 3-4 years serves absolutely no purpose and certainly contributes very little to the professionalism of the Army.

But you are correct. A topic for another day.

[Fantasia]

Undertakings changed after my time. I was on 4 years per year.

Officers having 3rd level qualifications is pretty much standard throughout developed countries. It is essential for professionalisation of the organisation. To say no one benefits other than the student is just wrong. Anyway I am not getting into that discussion and turning it into an us & them conversation

[Chuck]

Yes I was in USAC

Yes I got paid MSA throughout

Yes my undertaking stated I was liable to be recalled at any time

Very good. That wasn't hard. So I was either misinformed or else it has changed in more recent times. No idea when you attended.

I'm sure you thoroughly enjoyed USAC all the same. Sounds like a great deal. A complete bluff job for most who attend with a mostly zero to negligible benefit to the Army but a great number all the same. Seems to be the general impression I've gotten. It won't be long filling up again now with the recent large intakes.

What's the undertaking per college year? And has it changed at all in recent times?

[Fantasia]

Have you been through USAC?

Not exactly like for like. Someone in USAC is not participating in any military function or work whatsoever for the vast majority of the year. They may not present to a barracks for months on end, not even close to the same as someone who is on a PNCO course.

If someone who has actually been through USAC can clarify, that would be great.

Yes I was in USAC

Yes I got paid MSA throughout

Yes my undertaking stated I was liable to be recalled at any time

[Chuck]

OPSEC can get a bit crazy on here at times compared to other forums. I wouldn't be surprised to see a discussion on how many socks to bring on an RDF Pots course being closed down due to OPSEC on here!

Completely agree.

I understand entirely the need for OpSec. However, as you say, its used selectively to shut down discussion when it doesn't suit some posters agendas or arguments. Usually accompanied by big red uppercase text to hammer home the point

[Auldsod]

Zero utility one could argue. Having 105 guns that get dusted off and wheeled out twice a year isn't a very efficient use of resources, one could argue. I could ream off a long list of useless Army specific courses and weapons etc that offer zero utility and are a prime waste of resources and shining example of lack of utility but it would be shut down quite quickly under the guide of"opsec" which one person is particularly fond of, so I won't bother.

OPSEC can get a bit crazy on here at times compared to other forums. I wouldn't be surprised to see a discussion on how many socks to bring on an RDF Pots course being closed down due to OPSEC on here!

[Chuck]

It would be like saying that a soldier on a PNCO course should lose his MSA because he was not available for gate duties or the Coy Ex next week.

Have you been through USAC?

Not exactly like for like. Someone in USAC is not participating in any military function or work whatsoever for the vast majority of the year. They may not present to a barracks for months on end, not even close to the same as someone who is on a PNCO course.

If someone who has actually been through USAC can clarify, that would be great.

[Fantasia]

Having just asked someone who has gone through USAC in recent times, they have told me they don't during the academic term. Whatever about the summer when they are back in their units I don't know.

If you have actually been through USAC perhaps you could shed some light on it.

My understanding was that because officers were all but non effective and unavailable to units bar the odd weekend duty that they did not receive MSA during the academic term.

This is what I was told so I was either misinformed it else there have been changes over the years.

They are available to be recalled at any time.

It would be like saying that a soldier on a PNCO course should lose his MSA because he was not available for gate duties or the Coy Ex next week.

MSA is considered core pay. They do not even take it off of people on long term SL.

[Chuck]

I can see why they would want to keep the training in house too. Having the ability to provide at least the elementary flight training is important for any air arm. I know many airlines complete that at home and would have fast jet training completed elsewhere.

Possibly for much the same reason we have artillery regiments for example; not a huge amount of utility for the DF but it keeps the service knowledge to a required standard.

Zero utility one could argue. Having 105 guns that get dusted off and wheeled out twice a year isn't a very efficient use of resources, one could argue. I could ream off a long list of useless Army specific courses and weapons etc that offer zero utility and are a prime waste of resources and shining example of lack of utility but it would be shut down quite quickly under the guide of"opsec" which one person is particularly fond of, so I won't bother.

The bitter anti everything AC members here will likely implode with fury at my next statement but the difference in the training received by a cadet and the equivalent civilian CPL course is night and day and is driven by the need for military pilots to train in many more disciplines than civilian counterparts. The sour grapes won't like that, but it is a fact.

Now - the more pertinent question is that is all the extra training required given the current aircraft and roles the AC has, and the honest answer is probably not which is why the wings course has been adjusted quite drastically. Theres no need to spend significant time learning close formation, aerobatics or tactical navigation if you will spend most of your time over the ocean or landing helicopters on GAA pitches.

[Chuck]

They do get MSA

Having just asked someone who has gone through USAC in recent times, they have told me they don't during the academic term. Whatever about the summer when they are back in their units I don't know.

If you have actually been through USAC perhaps you could shed some light on it.

My understanding was that because officers were all but non effective and unavailable to units bar the odd weekend duty that they did not receive MSA during the academic term.

This is what I was told so I was either misinformed it else there have been changes over the years.

[DeV]

Why are they recruiting cadet classes if they don't have the capacity to train them??

Maybe it ticks the box for some political type..

Because more pilot very urgently required

Then retention of even the very modest PC9s couldn’t be justified





@TangoSierra, on USAC. Maybe they are afraid that if they got rid of it that draw will be gone. It may not be the reason people join but it is a good draw. The DF will however always need to send people to college..... unless it only goes for people already qualified (my opinion.... do both).

Should all non-grads get it (imho no). If for no other reason than it will mean units have more officers available which they are hugely short of.

[Fantasia]

If you are unwilling to accept that weather, which is completely outside of the control of everyone, has a singificant part to play in contributing to delays well then I don't know what else to tell you. As I said, it is not a hard concept to grasp.

A single week of sustained bad weather, which is not thar uncommon in Ireland, particularly during the period from October to March could results in the loss of 80 slots in a single week assuming 4 aircraft flying 4 slots per day which is again, entirely reasonable.

Why is this such a hard concept for you to believe? I'm not blowing smoke up your arse. In general the weather is probably the single biggest influencing factor in aviation worldwide and particularly so when you are dealing with ab-initio students with pretty much zero experience.





I have no idea, USAC is something the DF can do without in my opinion. Aside from sending non grads to college on handsome-ish wages, the only return the army gets is a guaranteed service commitment which I think is two/three years for every one spend in 3rd level. I believe officers undertaking USAC courses do not get paid MSA either which means the difference in wages is probably 10-15k at the very most, even towards the end of the course. I guess if you are a bean counter, that 10-15k per year could represent a good ROI because you now have that individual tied down for a defined period which should, 'in theory' allow for better planning. In comparison, AC officers are obliged to give 12 years in return upon commissioning which is significantly longer than many other western air forces/arms so the bean counters get their chunk of flesh there which is understandable.

They do get MSA

[Auldsod]

Of could of course but it to do so involves a multitude to changes to syllabi, conditions, service agreements between organizations and of course additional money to finance it, whatever the cost may be.

I've seen first hand the bureaucracy in trying to acquire a printer. That can be a struggle in itself.

Now apply that to sending 6-10 students to the USA for 6 months.

Nothing is easy or straightforward. Such a deal would likely vastly eat into the J7 external education budget which screws it for everyone else.

I can see why they would want to keep the training in house too. Having the ability to provide at least the elementary flight training is important for any air arm. I know many airlines complete that at home and would have fast jet training completed elsewhere.

Possibly for much the same reason we have artillery regiments for example; not a huge amount of utility for the DF but it keeps the service knowledge to a required standard.

[Chuck]

The point made above though ; would you not stick them on an intensive 6 months learn-to-fly IFR-in-6-months in the USA - say Arizona ?

Of could of course but it to do so involves a multitude to changes to syllabi, conditions, service agreements between organizations and of course additional money to finance it, whatever the cost may be.

I've seen first hand the bureaucracy in trying to acquire a printer. That can be a struggle in itself.

Now apply that to sending 6-10 students to the USA for 6 months.

Nothing is easy or straightforward. Such a deal would likely vastly eat into the J7 external education budget which screws it for everyone else.

[Chuck]

Why are they recruiting cadet classes if they don't have the capacity to train them??

Maybe it ticks the box for some political type..

You would have to ask the political heads that one. There is an optimum number of personnel to train at any one time, both AC, NS and Army. But given the retention crisis and the subsequent "recruit at all costs" attitude displayed, its clear it is a political move. Look at the recent size of cadet classes for example. A textbook knee jerk reaction.

So now you have, across the spectrum, courses being shortened, corners being cut just to massage numbers. There are some real gems in the pipeline, really and truly and once again, as they always do, the chickens will come home to roost.

It also makes answering PQs very easy. Any question on retention in the PDF is now met with how many are being recruited to meet the deficit.

This whole saga doesnt just apply to officers either. I'm sure some of those serving members here saw the AAR report concerning a recent recruit class which was a real eye opener and a reflection of the current attitude of getting bodies in the door at any cost.

Anyway, I have gone vastly off topic but it is all worthy of discussion, but perhaps not in this thread.