Cadet Payscale

[Chuck]

Listen you can blame the lack of aircraft, training instructors and operational needs for not being able to keep to a schedule, I'll buy that. But when you start pulling the weather card you are just trying to blow smoke up my arse.

If you are unwilling to accept that weather, which is completely outside of the control of everyone, has a singificant part to play in contributing to delays well then I don't know what else to tell you. As I said, it is not a hard concept to grasp.

A single week of sustained bad weather, which is not thar uncommon in Ireland, particularly during the period from October to March could results in the loss of 80 slots in a single week assuming 4 aircraft flying 4 slots per day which is again, entirely reasonable.

Why is this such a hard concept for you to believe? I'm not blowing smoke up your arse. In general the weather is probably the single biggest influencing factor in aviation worldwide and particularly so when you are dealing with ab-initio students with pretty much zero experience.

If the bean counters are into saving money, why do they commission officers and THEN send them to University on higher wages? Could argue flight school is University equivalent

I have no idea, USAC is something the DF can do without in my opinion. Aside from sending non grads to college on handsome-ish wages, the only return the army gets is a guaranteed service commitment which I think is two/three years for every one spend in 3rd level. I believe officers undertaking USAC courses do not get paid MSA either which means the difference in wages is probably 10-15k at the very most, even towards the end of the course. I guess if you are a bean counter, that 10-15k per year could represent a good ROI because you now have that individual tied down for a defined period which should, 'in theory' allow for better planning. In comparison, AC officers are obliged to give 12 years in return upon commissioning which is significantly longer than many other western air forces/arms so the bean counters get their chunk of flesh there which is understandable.

[Charlie252]

Why are they recruiting cadet classes if they don't have the capacity to train them??

Maybe it ticks the box for some political type..

[DeV]

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20090501054335/http://www.raf.mod.uk/idtraf/courses/6121.cfm

Min 26 weeks

Every Air Force can tell you how long their syllabi are and all being ok how long it is likely to take

[trellheim]

The point made above though ; would you not stick them on an intensive 6 months learn-to-fly IFR-in-6-months in the USA - say Arizona ?

[TangoSierra]

You are correct. Your suggestion makes total sense. However. If you are a bean counter it saves money to pay an individual as a cadet at €18k per year rather than as an officer at €30k+ a year. That is the only reason as far as I can see.

I have never heard of anyone failing a type conversion course after completing a wings course.

If the bean counters are into saving money, why do they commission officers and THEN send them to University on higher wages? Could argue flight school is University equivalent

[Bravo20]

Listen you can blame the lack of aircraft, training instructors and operational needs for not being able to keep to a schedule, I'll buy that. But when you start pulling the weather card you are just trying to blow smoke up my arse.

[DeV]

Also stuff like you could have 4 aircraft available for 6 in a senior class and 10 in a junior class, the senior class only having 1 instr available and the junior class having 2

[Chuck]

And vastly fewer students...

Surely this, as well as the endless whining about the weather and not having the tools and people to do the flying bit of Officer Cadet training just rams home the truth that you'd be far better off doing the flying bit at either a private outfit in the US or southern Europe, or just loading the candidates on other nations flying training programs...

(Of course, Irish requirements are special, no other operator has to fly in rain, or above the sea, or in aircraft with paint on them, or whatever utter bollocks excuse the self-licking lollipop can come up with for operating almost twice as many training aircraft as it does operational aircraft...

Your post is quite ironic in a way. Although you are clearly trying to portray the status quo as a typical "Irish solution to an Irish problem". Your only recommendation is to suggest an even more Irish solution to an Irish problem and that is to outsource with absolutely no facts or figures to back it up. Just outsource. Wonderful problem solving.

If you can bear with me for a second and leave behind your sour bitter scorn for all things AC related. Can you explain how identifying the Irish climate as a significant determinimg factor in the length of cadet flying training is as you so eloquently put it "utter bollox"? I realise you were specifically referring to the number or training aircraft but I'll assume the attitude applies to you entire post.

Certain disciplines require specific type of weather. You can't do basic circuits if the wind is outside of limits. You can't do VFR navigation if the cloud base is too low or visibility is too poor. You can't do IFR if the cloud is on the deck or the weather at your alternate is below limits.

You can't even tow the aircraft outside the hanger if the wind is forecast to be above what the manufacturer says is safe.

These are all manufacturer limitations, SOPs and regulations, all of which are designed to keep the crew and the aircraft intact.

If you have some cost benefit analysis from any other nation I'd love to read it. Or is this just a case of "sure it must be cheaper because I said so"

[ropebag]

The RAF have much more aircraft, techs and instructors

And vastly fewer students...

Surely this, as well as the endless whining about the weather and not having the tools and people to do the flying bit of Officer Cadet training just rams home the truth that you'd be far better off doing the flying bit at either a private outfit in the US or southern Europe, or just loading the candidates on other nations flying training programs...

(Of course, Irish requirements are special, no other operator has to fly in rain, or above the sea, or in aircraft with paint on them, or whatever utter bollocks excuse the self-licking lollipop can come up with for operating almost twice as many training aircraft as it does operational aircraft...

[DeV]

The RAF have much more aircraft, techs and instructors.... yes they also have more students but there is spare capability in there

[Chuck]

Strangely enough the RAF seem to be able to put a time scale on their flight training. I believe the UK has similar weather to ourselves. Of course they commission their officers after initial officer training and before flight training.

You are comparing two completely different animals and with massively different amounts of resources.

Not sure what your point is.

I know first hand that there is and has been significant "slippage" to course durations in the "mighty" RAF as well. The brochures only tell one side of the story.

It's really not a hard concept to understand. When you have a different number of cadets being recruited annually, say 6 one year and 12 the following year, the larger class is going to take longer so how can you expect a definitive timeline when all the other variables have to be taken into account also.

[Bravo20]

Strangely enough the RAF seem to be able to put a time scale on their flight training. I believe the UK has similar weather to ourselves. Of course they commission their officers after initial officer training and before flight training.

[Auldsod]

You cannot expect a defined time when the longest and most important part of the course is entirely dependent on weather which is completely outside of anyone's control. Somewhere between 30-40% of planned sorties are cancelled by weather. This is before you consider aircraft servicability and instructor availability. The army and naval service don't have to suffer to the same extent, especially in relation to the weather.

A service bulletin for a specific maintenance aspect can ground a fleet. That can't be planned for.

There are so many variables that cannot be predicted, hence why there is no definitive plan.

A class of 10 will take significantly longer than 5 simply because there are only so many slots per day. Its just simple maths before you consider all the other variables.

I would be interested to see how the RAF manage to gauge how long it will take to do basic flight training to within a few weeks? I'd assume a greater number of instructors and aircraft coupled with a steadier pipeline of students allows for them to take advantage of the weather when it's good.

I know in the US military, flight training takes places in the sunnier more arid areas of the US where they are less likely to have issues with the weather and other restrictions on operation.

[Chuck]

The Air Corps is the one branch of the DF I have very little knowledge of. I am very surprised that the Air Corps is not able to define the length of time it takes to train Air Corps cadets. Both the Army and Naval Service are able to set out the length of time for the various stages but the Air Corps is not (per military.ie).

You cannot expect a defined time when the longest and most important part of the course is entirely dependent on weather which is completely outside of anyone's control. Somewhere between 30-40% of planned sorties are cancelled by weather. This is before you consider aircraft servicability and instructor availability. The army and naval service don't have to suffer to the same extent, especially in relation to the weather.

A service bulletin for a specific maintenance aspect can ground a fleet. That can't be planned for.

There are so many variables that cannot be predicted, hence why there is no definitive plan.

A class of 10 will take significantly longer than 5 simply because there are only so many slots per day. Its just simple maths before you consider all the other variables.

[Chuck]

Three and half years is very long. Surely an argument for commissioning pre-winging there. The officer could always be binned or moved into a ground role if flight training is failed.

I may be making a massive assumption here but there have surely been cases where cadets have being winged but have failed training on type afterwards?

You are correct. Your suggestion makes total sense. However. If you are a bean counter it saves money to pay an individual as a cadet at €18k per year rather than as an officer at €30k+ a year. That is the only reason as far as I can see.

I have never heard of anyone failing a type conversion course after completing a wings course.