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  • #46
    Originally posted by trellheim View Post
    R5 Para 75

    I cannot find a recent copy of S3 and there is not a recent one laid in the oireachtas library
    Interesting, where you would you get access to the above documentation? Online?

    My reading of the above is that the rates of pay of members (AR+NSR) 'for personnel of the Permanent Defence Forces shall apply to reservists of corresponding ranks, grades and classes attending at any of the courses of training or R.5 instruction etc...' could either state that the payscales themselves are in the regulation OR that they should match those of the PDF (possibly reduced by 10% with another regulation). It's an incredibly badly worded from what I can see or maybe I'm just bad at reading legalese.

    You wouldn't happen to know if this was raised or noticed before. If there is a decision made that the RDF are indeed on sub 10% of PDF pay; fair enough - let the RDFRA deal with it. The misconception that our pay is PDF pay less 10% needs to stop being touted around as I've heard it numerous times since I've joined.

    I'm not sure what worries me more.

    1. That this difference in pay was not noticed before.

    or

    2. It was noticed before but nothing was done about it for some reason.

    Comment


    • #47
      Technically what should have happened is that Para 18 should have been amended to bring into force the 10% pay cut as that is what has legal force . S3 is full of tables of pay rates and the like. If you go to http://opac.oireachtas.ie/liberty/libraryHome.do and search for "pay and allowances" you will find several amendments to S3

      Edit : Para 97 of the Act refers: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1.../en/html#sec97 which deals with Pay etc.

      (d) Every regulation made under this subsection shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as may be after it is made and, if a resolution annulling the regulation is passed by either such House within the next subsequent twenty-one days on which that House has sat after the regulation has been laid before it, such regulation shall be annulled accordingly but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done under such regulation.

      -> therefore, if its not in the oireachtas library of documents laid its shaky

      Final Edit : the 2007 Act restatement said THIS

      In addition to the Statutory Instruments listed in this Foreword, there
      are also a large number of Regulations made by the Minister under the Defence Acts and which
      deal with the day to day management of the Defence Forces. These are not included in the Restatement
      in view of the fact that they are subject to continuing amendment and the sheer volume
      of their content would not make it feasible to include them. Essentially these are internal documents
      and any information required as to their content would be available on request from Legislation
      Branch of the Department of Defence. Therefore, they are not deemed appropriate for inclusion
      in the Restatement.
      Last edited by trellheim; 8 November 2018, 13:04.
      "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

      "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

      Comment


      • #48
        If you contact Legislation Branch of DoD they should be able to email you an up to date S3, it isn’t restricted

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
          ...let the RDFRA deal with it...
          There is so much wrong with this sentence that I don't know where to begin.

          Comment


          • #50
            Just a further update on the below considering the new LRA 2 pay scale for the PDF as of the 1st of October this year.

            An RDF Corporal for example is now on weekly pay of EUR 512.07.

            A PFD Corporal (before MSA) is on EUR 630.49 at the first point of the scale.

            The RDF weekly rate is now 18.7% less than the full time equivalent.

            I've added the sources for the data below. I can confirm the RDF scale is current as I was paid off these rates this month.

            Defence Forces personnel lead a "Life less Ordinary". All aspects of military life are varied and for each member of the Force each day may bring a new challenge.

            Last edited by Auldsod; 29 November 2018, 09:22.

            Comment


            • #51
              Assuming the pay scales up are correct

              It also depends on if you joined pre or post 1 Jan 2013

              Comment


              • #52
                The pay scales up are correct. I've received confirmation from pay on that. Unfortunately you'll have to take my word for it on that.

                Being honest, Dev - half of your posts include pasted web links to documents so I'm assuming you understand the need to put some trust in documentation posted on government websites. The PDF pay scale is actually dated. Sounds like you don't want to accept you've been underpaid the last few years

                I'm post 2013 so they're correct for me. To the best of my knowledge, pre or post 2013 is irrelevant with regards RDF pay and it's a single scale.

                Allowances are a different story however.

                Some allowances post 2013 are actually higher now it might be possible that pre 2013 RDF members could actually be at a disadvantage with relation to some payments.
                Last edited by Auldsod; 29 November 2018, 16:05.

                Comment


                • #53
                  RDF Pay is Governed by The Regulation R5. BROAD HINT to a box search. Have a look at what Paragraph 75 says.

                  Also Haddington Road is the current public service pay agreement
                  "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                  "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by trellheim View Post
                    RDF Pay is Governed by The Regulation R5. BROAD HINT to a box search. Have a look at what Paragraph 75 says.

                    Also Haddington Road is the current public service pay agreement
                    I understand that they are governed by R5. I attained a copy and the pay scale isn't in it. Apparently not every amendment will be added to the final published document. It helped me finally understand cadet pay but not RDF pay.

                    My issue is less with the fact we are on a scale that is obviously not linked to the Haddington road agreement but that the RDFRA in any communication I have had (electronically and in person) with them state as gospel that we are on PDF pay less 10%. If RDF pay is out of sync with with current PDF pay; RDFRA should be looking to get this updated on R5 with the unfortunate 10%.

                    Again, I understand that RDF pay isn't linked to any of the current IR agreements but rather that it's directly advised via regulation. My issue is that there is a growing divergence beyond the 10% gap already known and that has either it not been identified or if it already has, there is no appetite by RDFRA to raise with the DoD and rectify.

                    A RDF corporal being paid less than 20% of PDF pay is pretty damning and there seem to have been a lot of heads deep in a lot of sand for a while.
                    Last edited by Auldsod; 29 November 2018, 16:27.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      The only person who can change a regulation is the minister. By law the Minister has to sign off any changes since no other entity can override what is secondary legislation.
                      "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                      "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
                        Being honest, Dev - half of your posts include pasted web links to documents so I'm assuming you understand the need to put some trust in documentation posted on government websites. The PDF pay scale is actually dated. Sounds like you don't want to accept you've been underpaid the last few years
                        I’m not aware that I have been until I investigate it myself. If I have been....

                        There is zero way from military.ie or defence.ie if anything is current as they don’t take down old versions.

                        I'm post 2013 so they're correct for me. To the best of my knowledge, pre or post 2013 is irrelevant with regards RDF pay and it's a single scale.
                        as far as I can remember those recruits who joined in 2013 were paid less



                        Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
                        Apparently not every amendment will be added to the final published document.
                        not sure what you mean ?

                        My issue is less with the fact we are on a scale that is obviously not linked to the Haddington road agreement but that the RDFRA in any communication I have had (electronically and in person) with them state as gospel that we are on PDF pay less 10%. If RDF pay is out of sync with with current PDF pay; RDFRA should be looking to get this updated on R5 with the unfortunate 10%.

                        Again, I understand that RDF pay isn't linked to any of the current IR agreements but rather that it's directly advised via regulation. My issue is that there is a growing divergence beyond the 10% gap already known and that has either it not been identified or if it already has, there is no appetite by RDFRA to raise with the DoD and rectify.

                        A RDF corporal being paid less than 20% of PDF pay is pretty damning and there seem to have been a lot of heads deep in a lot of sand for a while.
                        I guarantee you, if this is true no one in the RDF or RDFRA has known about it before.

                        DFR R5 does require revision and has done for a number of years as it is not fit for purpose

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          DFR R5 last showing amended in 2015//2016 but I cannot find a record of the Minister signing off , and even so this paragraph never changed.
                          "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                          "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Para 18 of S5 refers to RDF pay rates according to DFR R5

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              For Officers Pay is S3 Para 18
                              "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                              "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
                                My issue is less with the fact we are on a scale that is obviously not linked to the Haddington road agreement but that the RDFRA in any communication I have had (electronically and in person) with them state as gospel that we are on PDF pay less 10%. If RDF pay is out of sync with with current PDF pay; RDFRA should be looking to get this updated on R5 with the unfortunate 10%.
                                If there is a pay discrepancy, then forget about it being rectified unless DoD or DF want to rectify it. They both know RDFRA is toothless and incompetent so there is no need for them to change anything. They know RDFRA is too busy fighting itself to fight for anything else.

                                If there is a pay discrepancy, then it is going to stay.

                                Comment

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